The Controversy of Antioxidants

pamojja

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24 grams is definitely a LOT. Enough to become a prooxidant, which is how it often works w/difficult cancer cases, and may be how it helped you.
Ascorbic acid til now only has been found pro-oxidant in-vitro to cancer cells with concentrations only attainable by infusions. Never in-vivo.

One study found with intakes of about 20 g throughout a day plasma levels rise to about 9 mg/dl. Still very far from IV ascorbate plasma peaks.

Code:
 Table 9.312 Human tissue & fluid ascorbic acid concentrations1

Organ/Tissue   Vitamin C Concentration*
 
Pituitary Gland            40-50 
Adrenal Gland             30-40 
Eye Lens                     25-31 
Liver                           10-16 
Brain                           13-15 
Pancreas                     10-15 
Spleen                        10-15 
Kidneys                       5-15  
Lungs                              7
Skeletal Muscle            3-4
Testes                              3
Thyroid                           2
Cerebrospinal Fluid        3.8
Plasma                      0.4-1
Saliva                        0.1-9.1

* mg/100 g wet tissue, mg/100 mL fluids
However, if one assumes already pro-oxidants effects of plasma-levels at 9 mg/dl, one also would have to assume this pro-oxidant environment is how the pituitary, adrenals, eye-lens, liver, brain, pancreas, speen and kidneys work day-in-day-out.

Which beside no such in-vivo finding, I find very unlikely.
 

dannybex

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Ascorbic acid til now only has been found pro-oxidant in-vitro to cancer cells with concentrations only attainable by infusions. Never in-vivo.

One study found with intakes of about 20 g throughout a day plasma levels rise to about 9 mg/dl. Still very far from IV ascorbate plasma peaks.

Code:
 Table 9.312 Human tissue & fluid ascorbic acid concentrations1

Organ/Tissue   Vitamin C Concentration*

Pituitary Gland            40-50
Adrenal Gland             30-40
Eye Lens                     25-31
Liver                           10-16
Brain                           13-15
Pancreas                     10-15
Spleen                        10-15
Kidneys                       5-15
Lungs                              7
Skeletal Muscle            3-4
Testes                              3
Thyroid                           2
Cerebrospinal Fluid        3.8
Plasma                      0.4-1
Saliva                        0.1-9.1

* mg/100 g wet tissue, mg/100 mL fluids
However, if one assumes already pro-oxidants effects of plasma-levels at 9 mg/dl, one also would have to assume this pro-oxidant environment is how the pituitary, adrenals, eye-lens, liver, brain, pancreas, speen and kidneys work day-in-day-out.

Which beside no such in-vivo finding, I find very unlikely.
My brain is only working at about 50%, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But it's my understanding that vitamin C works selectively, so perhaps one shouldn't assume that it works the same way in every environment or even cell.

This study was in-vivo, and found it had prooxidant effects (if given by IV) in tumors, but not in the blood of rats. And this study in humans, found the same -- that it was selective -- but worth noting that it also was given by IV.

Anyway, the reason I replied to this thread is not because I don't think antioxidants aren't important -- or critical to health -- but because it may just be possible that some of us have been or may be interfering with the body's natural response to infections, etc., by taking too much, too many, too often.
 
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pamojja

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I don't think antioxidants aren't important
As already said, each nutrient falling under the anti-oxidant umbrella, has much more important functions, than being just anti-oxidant only.

... or may be interfering with the body's natural response to infections, etc., by taking too much, too many, too often.
Not in my experience taking all nutrients, also with not-so-important antioxidant activity, at mega-doses for the last 11 years. Only remissions.

As you now found too, pro-oxidant effects occure with cancer-cells at levels attainable with IVs only.

This study was in-vivo, and found it had prooxidant effects (if given by IV) in tumors, but not in the blood of rats. And this study in humans, found the same -- that it was selective -- but worth noting that it also was given by IV.
The first study in mice, the second in rats.
 

ebethc

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From ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684116/ ): "Glutathione administered intravenously, inhaled, and ingested intranasally increases systemic levels.27 IV glutathione has a short half-life but has shown at least short-term efficacy in several diseases. Oral administration is controversial; while most research shows that oral glutathione does not increase RBC glutathione, there are a few studies that show efficacy.28 My opinion is that unmodified oral glutathione is unlikely to consistently elevate cellular levels. Oral and transdermal liposomal glutathione show promise, but research is early."
do you know if intranasal glutathione can cross the blood-brain barrier?
 

dreamydays

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In my opinion, antioxidants are a the old way of thinking and don't work. NMN and resveratrol (with fat as its not very bioavailable) are the latest thinking from the longevity community. This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/bsta045 is excellent and goes through the research and his indenpendant suggestions. I suggest there is great evidence for sulphoraphane (Jarrow BrocooMax) and NMN and resveratrol. Antioxidants are basically ineffective and great for selling foods and supplements, but don't work. Watch Rhonda Patrick's videos regarding sulphoraphane on youtube. I have looked into growing broccoli sprouts but its too much work, so the Jarrow supplement is the only affordable way of taking it.
 

pamojja

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In my opinion, antioxidants are a the old way of thinking and don't work.
Experienced too many benefits to be able to agree. Where I wholeheartedly agree, and already explained in my former post: to even categorise as 'antioxidants', despite their manyfold, not overlaping and much more important functions, is indeed an old and not well thoughtout way of thinking.
 

dreamydays

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Thanks for your reply pamojja, I just feel there was a rush to exaggerate and sell foods and supplements but I have never felt any benefits. Watch Dr Brad Stanfield on Youtube, he examines what works and what doesn't have the evidence. Obviously all supplements and foods have their own benefits. There is definitely a role for antioxidants and Vitamin C, Glutathione, etc. I just think there is so much hype and bullshit around and a lot of the evidence has moved on. Some of these newer ideas improve antioxidant activity. A lot of the longevity post I agree with. I take piracetam, which I think is so underrated and underused in ME. Its about sorting through the hype and finding out what actually works.
 

Wishful

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It's kind of hard to personally figure out whether taking antioxidants will make you live longer. How do you know when you would have died if you weren't taking them? I'm sure marketers love that kind of inability to disprove their claim.

For that matter, once you're dead, you won't be around to think about the issue. o_O
 

pamojja

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It's kind of hard to personally figure out whether taking antioxidants will make you live longer.
Though I think it really isn't accurate to speak of 'antioxidants', I had usually mercilessly progressing conditions, which conventional medicine thinks irreversible. But experienced remission of a 60% walking-disabilty (from PAD), COPD, ME/CFS symptoms and other minor ails (NAFLD, cystitis, retinal migraines, psoriasis..). As a bonus I don't get sun-burned anymore (without suncream)

Healthspan compared to lifespon is pretty obvious, once it manifests. :)
 
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The body recycle kilograms worth of antioxidant molecules per day. Some of these molecules goes through irreversible pathways that end with none re-usable products, such as detoxification of drugs and cellular debris, and this is where exogenous antioxidant supplementation may help (NAC for Paracetamol overdose for example), other than that, the best thing antioxidant supplementation can do is to saturate the rate of enzymatic reactions that involve said antioxidants. But that is not enough for people with serious enzymatic defects such as in G6PD. The body may recycle a kg worth of glutathione per day.. no one will take a one kg infusion of glutathione per day.. In the same way the body recycle 60 kg of ATP per day, 10-20 kg of NAD+ per day..etc
 

xploit316

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Are there any natural immunosuppressants?

For some reason I personally dont do well with high antioxidants (Be it plant based diet, supplements, spices (Esp turmeric and cloves) etc). I suspect its a genetic liver issue which I inherited from my paternal side (Grandmother died from colon cancer, grandfather had Alcoholic fatty liver).

High starch and medium protein, low fat/fructose/fiber is the diet which is working well for me and keeps my body and mind at peace.
 

Wishful

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Are there any natural immunosuppressants?
I'm not sure, but another question is what part of the immune system are you trying to suppress? I tried cyclosporin, a quite potent immunosuppressant, but it had no effect on my symptoms. Afterwards I learned that it doesn't pass the BBB easily, so it wouldn't suppress neuroinflammation.