T3 intracellular calcium and caffeine

Gingergrrl

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Woah! That is much! I take 2 x 2.5 micrograms T3 per day and ca. 90 micrograms T4 per day mg?!
I actually take a very small dose and 15 mg (equal to 1/4 grain) is the lowest dose available for Armour Thyroid. When I used to take lower, I had to cut the pill in half (to 7.5 mg or 1/8 grain).

I think Armour must be dosed differently than the thyroid med that you take? It’s helped my numbers stay on the low side of normal but it’s never made me hyperthyroid.
 

Iritu1021

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To be honest, I have no experience with Armour. :) You don't get it in Germany (even if you wanted to).
Armour is dosed in grains, dating back to the convention when it was first marketed (19th century). One grain of Armour is 65 mg of the pig thyroid extract which is standardized to contain 9 mcg of T3 and 38 mcg of T4.
 
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Iritu1021

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@pattismith I got one more for you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5684588/

Modulation Effects of Cordycepin on Voltage-Gated Sodium Channels in Rat Hippocampal CA1 Pyramidal Neurons in the Presence/Absence of Oxygen

Cordyceps seems to have a very profound effect on my ACTH production. I think it could be beneficial but on a regular dose my ACTH shot up from 6 to 396 (normal range 6-30).
It appears to instantly extinguish the feeling of neuroinflammation I get from too much T3 (which I'm now starting to view as related to some type of ion channel upregulation/sensitization) but it makes me feel really tired as a result. Maybe I can get it to work if I micro-dose it.
 

Gingergrrl

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To be honest, I have no experience with Armour. :) You don't get it in Germany (even if you wanted to).
Is Armour only available in the US?

Armour is dosed in grains, dating back to the convention when it was first marketed (19th century). One grain of Armour is 65 mg of the pig thyroid extract which is standardized to contain 9 mcg of T3 and 38 mcg of T4.
Thanks for all of that info @Iritu1021 and I was not aware of it myself (and have taken Armour since 2013)!
 

Inara

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Is Armour only available in the US?
I think you would get it Germany, only doctors won't prescribe it.

@Iritu1021, thanks for explaining. So 1/4 grain of Armour is not so much T3 and T4. By the way, I think the ratio of T3 to T4 in Armour is interesting.
I don't remember where I know that from, but I remember when starting thyroid hormones, some people - especially those with Hashimoto's - need to start with tiny doses.

Sorry for going off-topic.
 

Iritu1021

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I think you would get it Germany, only doctors won't prescribe it.

@Iritu1021, thanks for explaining. So 1/4 grain of Armour is not so much T3 and T4. By the way, I think the ratio of T3 to T4 in Armour is interesting.
I don't remember where I know that from, but I remember when starting thyroid hormones, some people - especially those with Hashimoto's - need to start with tiny doses.

Sorry for going off-topic.
I've been experimenting with thyroid medications since early 2014. I've tried doses as low as 0.25 mcg of T3 (Blanchard protocol) and doses as high as 60 mcg per day (Wilson protocol) and everything in between. No other drug had the power to make me feel as good (initially) or as bad (later on) as NDT or T3. I've written about my thyroid misadventures with all the different methods I've come across and tried on my blog. (www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com).

I would currently classify myself as a "recovered T3 user" as I have finally broken my T3 dependency cycle and arrived at the conclusion that my life is just much better off without any T3 in it. I feel at least 10x better now than back when I was taking any kind of T3 containing medication, even at the tiniest doses.

I still take some T4 for my hypothyroidism but it's a completely different drug than T3 or NDT. Kenneth Blanchard's book was certainly a huge eye-opener that made me realize that I was not alone in my volatile response to T3.

I do realize that it's a controversial subject and I'm not saying that would be the right solution for everyone. We're all different and some people seem to be fine with taking even really massive amounts of T3. But there are also people like me out there - who can't get away with any T3 at all.

I did come to view the rapid benefits I always initially felt from T3 as neurologic rather than hormonal effects. T3 can definitely elicit a strong neurological response at supraphysiologic doses (and I would consider anything above 0.25 mcg/hr as a supraphysiologic dose since unlike the pig thyroid gland, the human thyroid gland makes hardly any T3 and virtually all the conversion is supposed to take place within the target tissue, thus allowing the cells to self-regulate). So Blanchard's slow release micro-dosing method might be the only one that comes somewhat close to imitating a normal human thyroid gland secretion.
 
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Inara

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I found a paper about neuropathies, where briefly the role of calcium and ER are mentioned:
Mechanisms of distal axonal degeneration in peripheral neuropathies,
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neulet.2015.01.048

While ER inhibition in diabetes is not well characterized, bortezomib has been shown to induce a transient stress response in the Schwann cell ER, leading to myelination deficiency and an increased cytokine expression[224].
...
While most of the work has examined mitochondrial dysfunction in the setting of HIV neuropathy and anti-retroviral therapy, the ER may also be adversely affected by viral proteins.
...
When calcium storage in the ER was experimentally reduced, the neurons were more resistant to gp120 triggered cell death, reinforcing the important role of the ER in mediating degeneration [123].
...
Degeneration was suggested by the authors to be due to energetic collapse in the axon, from mitochondrial dysfunction leading to impaired Na+/K + ATPase activity and, thus, intraaxonal accumulation of sodium ions [176] and increased calcium influx by reversal of the sodium/calcium exchanger [233]. This influx of calcium may begin the path to apoptosis. This hypothesis remains to be tested, however.
...
Thus, a variety of diseases and neuropathies are caused by only a few mechanisms: mitochondrial dysfunction and ROS, altered signaling and inflammation, and finally reduced axonal transport and channel dysfunction.
See also Fig. 2. (Am I allowed to show that figure here?)

I know that peripheral neuropathy was linked to IP3R dysfunction elsewhere. I should take a look at it.

I'm now waiting for the calcium flux measurements results.

Does someone here has a neuropathy/small fiber neuropathy/etc.?
 

Learner1

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Thyroid hormone is critical to mitochondrial function:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27783852

Thyroid hormones have a profound impact on mitochondria, the organelles responsible for the majority of cellular energy production, and several studies have been devoted to understand the respective importance of the nuclear and mitochondrial pathways for organelle activity.

During the last decades, several new aspects of both THs (i.e., metabolism, transport, mechanisms of action, and the existence of metabolically active TH derivatives) and mitochondria (i.e., dynamics, respiratory chain organization in supercomplexes, and the discovery of uncoupling proteins other than uncoupling protein have emerged, thus opening new perspectives to the investigation of the complex relationship between thyroid and the mitochondrial compartment.

In this review, in the light of an historical background, we attempt to point out the present findings regarding thyroid physiology and the emerging recognition that mitochondrial dynamics as well as the arrangement of the electron transport chain in mitochondrial cristae contribute to the mitochondrial activity.

We unravel the genomic and nongenomic mechanisms so far studied as well as the effects of THs on mitochondrial energetics and, principally, uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation via various mechanisms involving uncoupling proteins.
 

Iritu1021

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I found a paper about neuropathies, where briefly the role of calcium and ER are mentioned:
Mechanisms of distal axonal degeneration in peripheral neuropathies,
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neulet.2015.01.048


See also Fig. 2. (Am I allowed to show that figure here?)

I know that peripheral neuropathy was linked to IP3R dysfunction elsewhere. I should take a look at it.

I'm now waiting for the calcium flux measurements results.

Does someone here has a neuropathy/small fiber neuropathy/etc.?
I get neuropathic pain in my throat and around my face and neck in the distribution of the sensory trigeminal nerve. And also burning feet sometimes.

There's also the theory of deafferentation that comes from the loss of neurons. "Deafferentation pain denotes a type of pain that results from complete or partial interruption of afferent nerve impulses".

I'm not an expert on copyright but IMO it's fine to share figures here since we are not reproducing them for commercial purposes. Copyright protection only applies for commercial and not personal use of the intellectual property.
 

Iritu1021

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Ok, then here's Fig. 2 of the above paper.
Thanks for posting this. So IP3 would be directly related to increased ER calcium release. I think most people with dysautonomia have some degree of peripheral neuropathy in small sensory nerve fibers (not the same as axons) but I think the calcium link to cellular degeneration would apply there as well.
 

Peyt

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Hi,
Can anyone tell me what kind of doctor I need to see to evaluate my EBV?
I had my primary care doctor test it, and it looks like I had EBV at some point, but he says that the virus is dormant and I don't need to worry about it.
My cardiologist who diagnosed me with POTS and is treating me with Ivaberdine is not really an expert in EBV.
Would any infectious disease doctor know about EBV and Rituximab or would it be a different specialty?
Where do people go to get Rituximab administered on them?
Thanks so much for your guidance,
Peyt
 

Inara

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@Inara
are you familiar with this clinic in Germany? (you're in Germany, right?)
https://www.ukgm.de/ugm_2/deu/umr_zuk/27260.html
Hi Iritu, yes, I know this clinic - not personally though. I read stories by people who tried that clinic. The results were sobering. Therefore I didn't try it.
Besides, Marburg is also one of those centers that propagate that ME is psychosomatic.

And I'm getting tested in Freiburg regarding the gene mutation. I am not sure if the Marburg clinic would have gotten there.

How did you find it, btw?
 

Gingergrrl

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Can anyone tell me what kind of doctor I need to see to evaluate my EBV?
Are you in the US or another country? In the US, I would try to see an ME/CFS specialist to test and analyze EBV (and other viruses) but if not possible, I would say an infectious disease specialist or an immunologist who is open-minded and thinks outside the box.

My cardiologist who diagnosed me with POTS and is treating me with Ivaberdine is not really an expert in EBV.
I found that Cardios did not know much about EBV. Is the Ivabradine helping your POTS?

Would any infectious disease doctor know about EBV and Rituximab or would it be a different specialty?
Are you interested in Rituximab for EBV or for autoimmunity? In general for autoimmunity, I would see a rheumatologist or a neuromuscular specialist (depending on the issue). I do not know of any doctors who are prescribing Rituximab for EBV and in my case, it is prescribed for autoimmunity. My doctor is an ME/CFS specialist who also treats MCAS, POTS, immune system dysfunction and autoimmunity, etc (and is an internist).

Where do people go to get Rituximab administered on them?
Do you mean is it administered in a hospital, outpatient infusion center, or at home? In my case, I get Ritux at an outpatient infusion center and I have not encountered a single patient who gets Rituximab at home b/c it is too risky. I talked to hundreds of people on various boards and groups before making my decision to try it in mid 2017 (and have now completed one year of treatment). Patients usually get it at a hospital or infusion center.
 

Peyt

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@Gingergrrl
Thanks so much for your reply,
Here are the answers to your questions:
1. I am in Southern California
2. Ivabradine helps lower my heart rate. But it does nothing for blood pooling to my legs or headaches or anything else. But that reduction in heart rate has helped with reducing my anxiety too.
3. As far as my interest in Rituximab, it started when I got bronchitis recently. I wear a fitbit and noticed my heart rate average went up when I had the infection. So that made me think, if an infection could make my heart rate go up, perhaps I have other infections in my body that are left untreated and effecting my heart as well And EBV would be the first suspect since I have heard it effects the heart. (I may be wrong for thinking this, i don't know)
 

Gingergrrl

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@Gingergrrl
Thanks so much for your reply,
Here are the answers to your questions:
1. I am in Southern California
After you said SoCAL, I realized that we have talked by PM before and we saw the same Cardio in the past (I will not say his name here). In the last PM, you were having some autonomic testing but had not yet spoken to your doctor (a different doctor) re: the results. I just checked the PM and this is not from memory :D

2. Ivabradine helps lower my heart rate. But it does nothing for blood pooling to my legs or headaches or anything else. But that reduction in heart rate has helped with reducing my anxiety too.
I am glad the Ivabradine is helping the tachycardia but sorry to hear it is not helping the other issues.

3. As far as my interest in Rituximab, it started when I got bronchitis recently. I wear a fitbit and noticed my heart rate average went up when I had the infection. So that made me think, if an infection could make my heart rate go up, perhaps I have other infections in my body that are left untreated and effecting my heart as well And EBV would be the first suspect since I have heard it effects the heart. (I may be wrong for thinking this, i don't know)
I am not sure if I understand this part and probably better to talk by PM (in the future) so we don't take this thread too far off-track. If you get bronchitis or infections (which I do not), I am not sure that Ritux would be safe for you. I think it is normal to have tachycardia during infections and I did during Mono/EBV in 2012. Then I developed POTS immediately after a 2nd infection in Jan 2013.

Oddly, I have never had another infection, cold, flu, fever, etc, in almost six years and we assume this is b/c the EBV shifted into severe autoimmunity. I did the Ritux (following a year of high dose IVIG) for autoimmunity and it was not for the EBV. But to answer your general point, yes EBV can affect the heart, as can other viruses like Parvo.
 

Iritu1021

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Hi Iritu, yes, I know this clinic - not personally though. I read stories by people who tried that clinic. The results were sobering. Therefore I didn't try it.
Besides, Marburg is also one of those centers that propagate that ME is psychosomatic.

And I'm getting tested in Freiburg regarding the gene mutation. I am not sure if the Marburg clinic would have gotten there.

How did you find it, btw?
My husband is from Munich and he read about it in some German paper and forwarded it to me (I couldn't read what it said). It sounds like an equivalent of Mayo Clinic here in the US.

Also, I'm a little confused - you said that you guys don't have NDT in Germany but I had a blog reader from Germany who contacted me and she said she was taking 3 grains of NDT.
 

Inara

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I never heard that Marburg was comparable to Mayo; the Charité is better known and maybe would come closer. In my view. But I have no experience with Marburg, I only kept my impression it being a psycho stronghold when it comes to ME.

NDT is Armour?

If yes: Armour is NOT prescribed in Germany, not as a standard. You get it if it is prescribed (I think?), but nearly no doctor will prescribe it. (You will already have problems to get your thyroid gland correctly checked, and nearly no doctor knows anything about a conversion malfunction of fT4 in fT3, let alone that there exists T3 replacement. I had trouble with getting T3 from German pharmacies at the beginning.)
There may be some private doctors that prescribe it. Then you have to pay for the drug yourself, of course. I think there are not many private doctors that do that. I would be interested to know who the private doctor is that prescribes Armour. (I could imagine an endocrinologist from Munich, but I don't know.)