supplemental 5-MTHF versus egg yolks

[zanolachino]

I reported a bad experience supplementing 5-MTHF and m-B12.

I've tried to reintroduce 5-MTHF many times since with consistently negative results, even at less than 100mcg per day. Experiments with low-dose TMG have also been very unpleasant. As much as I try to convince myself that @Freddd is correct -- that this is something to power through -- I feel in my bones every time that I am heading away from health, not toward it.

It's frustrating, because my lab work indicates a clear need for folate and methylation support generally. Homocysteine and SAH are high. SAM is low, as are almost all the forms of folate in the chain.

Recently, after some time away from eggs due to a suspected allergy, I started eating three or four raw egg yolks per day. Of course, I can't know for sure what nutrients are actually in there, but these are high-quality eggs, and I would be surprised if they were lower in folate than the USDA database figure of approximately 25mcg per yolk. So I should be getting roughly 75 to 100mcg of folate -- and as I understand it, the folate in egg yolk is entirely in the form of 5-MTHF. Yet I don't respond negatively to the egg yolks as I do to 5-MTHF supplementation.

Interesting, no?

 

[minkeygirl]

Do you think maybe it's a filler in the supplements that is giving you problems?

 

[whodathunkit]

@zanolachino, are you trying TMG at the same time as methylfolate? I love TMG for a few days and then it's a no go. Makes me way too speedy, does horrible things to my bowels, etc. If you're doing other things with methylfolate and B12, that could be one of your problems.

Also, minkeygirl's question is a very good one. We don't ask that about additives/fillers very often, and it could well be an overlooked factor for more people than anyone realizes.

How well do you tolerate supplements other than folate or B12?

 

[zanolachino]

Thanks for the responses.

@minkeygirl,

The filler idea is a good one, but I have experimented at some length and am fairly certain that I am not sensitive to excipients -- though I am ultra-sensitive to certain active ingredients, for sure!

@whodathunkit,

Thanks for sharing your experience with TMG. I was not taking it at the same time as 5-MTHF. Since 5-MTHF caused me feel so terrible, again and again, I was attempting to support methylation (and lower homocysteine) via another pathway.

As an aside, it's interesting how many people out there recommend huge doses of TMG for liver rejuvenation without noting that some people have bad reactions. Indeed, you often read the claim that TMG has no side effects at all!

As another aside, as far as methylation is concerned, I'm not sure what is left to try other than SAMe, but the idea of boosting SAMe directly has always made me nervous.

 

[minkeygirl]

I have sensitivies to things but the only thing I know of for sure is pink dyes.

As for recommendations of TMG, every one of us is different with what we can tolerate. It's up to us to decide what we want to take.

 

[whodathunkit]

FWIW, TMG is just betaine, which is basically a digestive aid. I did not know that when I started taking it, but it accounts for the gastro symptoms it gave me. It's a big methyl donor, too, so that accounts for the speeding up. But I forgot it was supposed to be good for the liver.

It's kind of dismaying how often you read that such-and-such supplement is a MIRACLE and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS AT ALL!!! When I read that I usually start smelling doody. I've had many things give me terrible adverse reactions at first, things which turned out to be great for me after I "pushed through" or tweaked for the bad sides (methylfolate, iodine, and MSM, to name a few off the top of my head), but to say things are utterly benign and without side effects for everyone is just ridiculous and sets unrealistic expectations. Then the unmet unrealistic expectations fuel mainstream prejudice against supplements and alternative therapies.

 

[Freddd]

I reported a bad experience supplementing 5-MTHF and m-B12.

I've tried to reintroduce 5-MTHF many times since with consistently negative results, even at less than 100mcg per day. Experiments with low-dose TMG have also been very unpleasant. As much as I try to convince myself that @Freddd is correct -- that this is something to power through -- I feel in my bones every time that I am heading away from health, not toward it.

It's frustrating, because my lab work indicates a clear need for folate and methylation support generally. Homocysteine and SAH are high. SAM is low, as are almost all the forms of folate in the chain.

Recently, after some time away from eggs due to a suspected allergy, I started eating three or four raw egg yolks per day. Of course, I can't know for sure what nutrients are actually in there, but these are high-quality eggs, and I would be surprised if they were lower in folate than the USDA database figure of approximately 25mcg per yolk. So I should be getting roughly 75 to 100mcg of folate -- and as I understand it, the folate in egg yolk is entirely in the form of 5-MTHF. Yet I don't respond negatively to the egg yolks as I do to 5-MTHF supplementation.

Interesting, no?

Hi zanolachino,

What exactly do you mean about feeling awful? What are the exact symptoms? This could tell us exactly what is happening. Is the order of onset the same every time? How long after taking the 5-MTHF does it start? There is a major difference between pills and absorbed from food nutrients. First, the pill reaches peak serum level in 30-45 minutes, then decreases by 50% each 3 hours or so. The folate from the egg starts absorbing after several hours and may have it spread out over 6 hours or so. Also, the egg contains small amounts of MeCbl and AdoCbl in a matrix of a 93% utilizable protein, the highest quality protein from any food. I have no idea what might be happening without hearing more details. And even then it might take some cautious trials. It's worth figuring out.

As far as TMG is concerned I think it needs to be tried in the correct sequence, after having all the earlier things in place and in balance. I think that it is not suitable for just throwing into the mix without knowing WHY. I put it into a possible critical cofactor classification but also possibly not needed at all. It depends upon what is happening leading up to it.

 

[Freddd]

FWIW, TMG is just betaine, which is basically a digestive aid. I did not know that when I started taking it, but it accounts for the gastro symptoms it gave me. It's a big methyl donor, too, so that accounts for the speeding up. But I forgot it was supposed to be good for the liver.

It's kind of dismaying how often you read that such-and-such supplement is a MIRACLE and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS AT ALL!!! When I read that I usually start smelling doody. I've had many things give me terrible adverse reactions at first, things which turned out to be great for me after I "pushed through" or tweaked for the bad sides (methylfolate, iodine, and MSM, to name a few off the top of my head), but to say things are utterly benign and without side effects for everyone is just ridiculous and sets unrealistic expectations. Then the unmet unrealistic expectations fuel mainstream prejudice against supplements and alternative therapies.

TMG is NOT a digestive aid. Betaine HCL is TMG with hydrochloric acid. That HCL is what makes it a digestive aid.

 

[whodathunkit]

TMG is NOT a digestive aid. Betaine HCL is TMG with hydrochloric acid. That HCL is what makes it a digestive aid.

Actually, I was unclear. I know TMG is not a digestive aid. What I should have said was betaine in general seems to have an effect on the alimentary canal and digestion.

Regardless of form, it doesn't alter the fact that betaine in any form *can* have somewhat of the same effect on the digestive system, at least for some people. My digestion, for example, "speeded up" on TMG. My stools turned orange, got very runny, felt a little acidic, and it was very clear that my food was passing through my alimentary canal much more quickly than normal. I also got a little acid indigestion, similar to when I'd tried other digestive aids in the past.

So I had to stop it.

This made me sad because for the first few days it really gave me a boost. I wish I was one of those people that it worked well for and could have stayed on it for at least a while. But the ultimate effects on my digestive system made it impossible for me to continue with TMG.

 

[Freddd]

Actually, I was unclear. I know TMG is not a digestive aid. What I should have said was betaine in general seems to have an effect on the alimentary canal and digestion.

Regardless of form, it doesn't alter the fact that betaine in any form *can* have somewhat of the same effect on the digestive system, at least for some people. My digestion, for example, "speeded up" on TMG. My stools turned orange, got very runny, felt a little acidic, and it was very clear that my food was passing through my alimentary canal much more quickly than normal. I also got a little acid indigestion, similar to when I'd tried other digestive aids in the past.

So I had to stop it.

This made me sad because for the first few days it really gave me a boost. I wish I was one of those people that it worked well for and could have stayed on it for at least a while. But the ultimate effects on my digestive system made it impossible for me to continue with TMG.

I'd like to ask a few more questions as regards the TMG. It is a major source of methyl groups that get passed around by cobalamin and folate and is found in foods. Did you take it with a meal or empty stomach? Did you titrate it? Is there a level, like 125mg, that doesn't have an adverse effect? Many things can irritate the stomach and intestines if started with a large dose but doesn't if there is a titration giving time to adjust in little pieces to the biochemical changes? Were you taking AdoCbl and LCF before adding TMG? Getting it in a good balance with MeCbl, L-methylfolate, AdoCbl and LCF already in place and stable and in balance with potassium and the basics has the body ready to use it as far as I can tell, going from people who have good results. There are lots of variations biologically. As this whole thing is about combinations, and not single items, there are more ways to have things not work than to have them work. If the methylation and ATP production are not working properly TMG doesn't either.. TMG is rarely the most limiting factor in all this.

 

[whodathunkit]

I'd like to ask a few more questions as regards the TMG. It is a major source of methyl groups that get passed around by cobalamin and folate and is found in foods. Did you take it with a meal or empty stomach?

Tried both. Started off with empty stomach. Developed symptoms. Then took with food. Got a little better. Then symptoms again.

Did you titrate it?

Yes.

Is there a level, like 125mg, that doesn't have an adverse effect?

Reducing the dose didn't seem to help symptoms until I stopped it altogether. Unless the dose is too small for me to notice the effects (that is, I might as well not bother since it doesn't seem to make any difference in how I feel energy-wise) I get gastro symptoms. I've experimented a little bit.

Were you taking AdoCbl and LCF before adding TMG?

Long before. And methylfolate and mB12. I was fairly stable with the entire Deadlock AND potassium, etc., for a while but then began to feel like I could use a little more "oomph", which is why I added TMG.

To be clear, I'm not knocking TMG. I think people should try it to see if it works for them. I really liked it for the first week or so I used it. Felt great, boost in energy, etc. I thought maybe it would be another HG supplement like the rest of the Deadlock, and was pretty disappointed when it became clear I was going to have to quit because of the gastro symptoms. I throw my experience out there in case it happens to someone else.

I do seem to have a weakness in my digestive system that I'm working on. I may circle back around to TMG after a while, when I get stabilized. Methylfolate seemed to expose the "weakness" in the form of paradoxical digestive upset and things have never been quite right since I started it. There doesn't seem to be an upper limit of methylfolate that clears the symptoms...at least, not one I'm willing to find. I capped my dosage at 40mg (50 Solgar tabs)/day. It was unsustainable monetarily as well as being a PITA to swallow that many pills on top of everything else I take.

I reduced down to 26 mg methylfolate for a while and things mostly stabilized, although still not completely "normal."

Reducing methylfolate down to 16mg/day hasn't produced any worse symptoms than 26mg/day did. So for the time being I've ruled out the mfolate donut hole/paradox as the sole cause of my digestive symptoms. TMG didn't exactly cause them, but before it they were fairly minor, and TMG made them a whole lot worse, to the point where I didn't want to put up with it any more.

FWIW I'm not overly concerned about it at this point because the symptoms aren't terrible and I have other things that can very easily account for some of the symptoms I have. Even before the methylfolate I had been experiencing some things for the last 5 years or so, that coincided with the onset of non-supplement and non-methylation related problems. I've beat my body up for a really long time, and it's not going to correct itself in a matter of months. I do think I've exposed a weakness in my digestive system that needs to heal. Now I just have to stay the course for long enough to see if I can correct it.

I'm willing to push through some symptoms if the payoff seems likely to be big enough (as it was with methylfolate and now appears to be happening with high-dose MSM), but something in my gut (pardon the pun ) told me TMG wasn't the best for me right now. Mainly the acidic feeling of the runny poo. Pardon the TMI. But when I found out TMG was actually betaine, the acidic thing made a lot of sense.

Anecdotally, it does seems to cause some people some problems not unlike mine. Again, just throwing it out there as food for thought. A LOT of people seem to have a weakness in their gastrointestinal systems.

But I do advocate at least trying it because it did help energically the first week I took it, and we never know exactly what's going to work for us, or how, until we try it.

Also worth noting is that increasing adB12 seems to have given me the extra "oomph" I was looking for when I started TMG. So maybe I just needed more AdCbl all along. I reduced it down to about 2500mg/day pretty quickly after starting it, but maybe I should have continued loading it longer.

 

[Freddd]

HI Whodathunkit,

Thank you for your detailed answers. I would like to point out that I have similar intestinal trouble with Metafolin in doses larger than 5mg at a time as well as with potassium doses that are too large (above 400mg on empty stomach with lots of water or more than 700mg with a meal. That is not uncommon.

One thing I would do in your position is check out some timing issues. After 10+ years of trying all sports of scheduling and doses of MeCbl and AdoCbl, I find I get the best results if I take MeCbl and AdoCbl separately. Currently I take AdoCbl once a week at 30-50mg sublingual to get CNS penetration. I take it over a 4-5 hour period using 1/2 a cap of Anabol Naturals at as time along the lower lip and gum. This gets it penetrating the nervous system. On that I maintain equilibrium and there is no noticeable startup effect from being "low" each week. I find that the MeCbl and AdoCbl each work better when just the one thing is the majority present in blood. I skip one dose of MeCbl that day. See the MeCbl/AdoCbl ratios post from a week ago or so.

Also, please remember that while you may have told me some things before I don't normally remember all the details on everybody. So it may be redundant. Are you taking glutathione, MaxGL, NAC, whey or other glutathione promoting items, folic acid, folinic acid, green drinks and probably some other things, like Metaformin? Also B1 > 20mg daily, B2. 30-40mg daily or B3 > 100mg daily, CyCbl or HyCbl.. These all may be hindering the methylation for one reason or another. The methylation end of things reacts very quickly and is very sensitive to all sorts of things.

When I finally started getting healing of the IBS, I found that milk was causing me problems but all the other food/nutrient extreme sensitivities went away.

 

[yukito]

I reported a bad experience supplementing 5-MTHF and m-B12.

I've tried to reintroduce 5-MTHF many times since with consistently negative results, even at less than 100mcg per day. Experiments with low-dose TMG have also been very unpleasant. As much as I try to convince myself that @Freddd is correct -- that this is something to power through -- I feel in my bones every time that I am heading away from health, not toward it.

It's frustrating, because my lab work indicates a clear need for folate and methylation support generally. Homocysteine and SAH are high. SAM is low, as are almost all the forms of folate in the chain.

Recently, after some time away from eggs due to a suspected allergy, I started eating three or four raw egg yolks per day. Of course, I can't know for sure what nutrients are actually in there, but these are high-quality eggs, and I would be surprised if they were lower in folate than the USDA database figure of approximately 25mcg per yolk. So I should be getting roughly 75 to 100mcg of folate -- and as I understand it, the folate in egg yolk is entirely in the form of 5-MTHF. Yet I don't respond negatively to the egg yolks as I do to 5-MTHF supplementation.

Interesting, no?

Hi,last year I experimented with different organic eggs.
The feeling induced by the differents eggs was slightly different.
Yes eggs doesn't have the same effect than methylfolate alone.
But eggs have a nearest effect(but not the same) of methylfolate,retinol,lecithin iodine, together.
I could strongly feel the folate and vitamin a in eggs each time I ate them.
Good luck

 

[Little Bluestem]

See the MeCbl/AdoCbl ratios post from a week ago or so.

@Freddd, Do you know what thread this post is in? I would really like to read it.

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd, Do you know what thread this post is in? I would really like to read it.

It is off the methylation menu about a week ago and has a title that says what is in it., ratios.