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Study Shows that Red Blood Cells are Stiffer in People with ME

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Low BH4 can lead to low citrulline, arginine and ornithine, compromising the urea cycle and allowing ammonia to buildup, which can lead to unpleasant brain symptoms. Early on,noting my amino acid tests showed low citrulline and ornithine, and I tried taking them, and both solved my waking up at 2am problem, I think, due to reducing ammonia.
Frustratingly the evidence here seems mixed as well. Yamano et al. found elevated ornithine, diminished citrulline, and normal glutamine. Armstrong et al. found diminished ornithine and glutamine (citrulline wasn't measured). And then Pall as referenced above found elevated citrulline. I imagine there may be more studies looking at these amino acids in ME, I'll have to dig around more.

It is interesting though how arginine has a split fate, depending on the polarization of the immune cell in this example. One direction towards iNOS and citrulline, the other towards arginase and ornithine. I think we know in ME that cytokines controlling these paths are both simultaneously elevated.

Dual-use-of-l-Arginine-by-iNOS-and-ARG1-lArginine-enters-microglia-through-CAT-and.png


ETA: Perhaps a better overall picture, from Clemente et al., 2020:

ijms-21-05291-g003.png
 
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halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Very interesting. Might be worth looking into therapeutic options to test this hypothesis
Yes, my mind jumped to the same. Looking at it a bit further, the in vitro endothelial cell study we discussed found "Decreased NO production was linked to higher inhibitory phosphorylation of eNOS at Thr495 at the basal state". Another study states that "The decreased eNOS phosphorylation at Ser1177 and the increased at Thr495 by SIN-1 were restored with arginase inhibitor and L-arginine." So yes, it looks like inhibition of arginase could have a positive effect here.

Another paper on arginase inhibitors lists various flavonoids as potential plant-based inhibitors. Anecdotally, I have heard of several people who have seen improvement of their POTS with the flavonoid dihydroquercetin. Personally, I take various flavonoids (including dihydroquercetin) for gastrointestinal mast cell inhibition, but don't notice any effect on POTS or ME symptoms.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
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1,859
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Brisbane, Australia

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
As I mentioned back in Oct. 2021, BH4 relates to gene gs224 Tetrahydrobiopterin
My personal findings/DNA and tests related to tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4)
L-dopa is not working for me.

The V3 chip (23andme) revealed gs224 over 10 years ago: https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Gs224

Here are the results with explanation:
Gs224
Magnitude 3
Repute Bad
Summary Two copies of GCH1 variant associated with lower levels of tetrahydrobiopterin
Criteria Gs224/criteria


You have two copies of a GCH1 variant associated with lower levels of tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) and total biopterins. BH4 is used in the production of several neurotransmitters, including serotonin and dopamine. While many people carry this with no obvious ill effects, it does seem noteworthy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699614/ reports median plasma BH4 levels in patients with this genotype were reduced by approximately 80%. Several potentially serious health issues could result from an 80% reduction in BH4 levels.

There may not be enough BH4 to convert phenylalanine to tyrosine. Therefore, phenylalanine can build up in body tissue and cause health issues (like high blood pressure).

Additionally, there will be lower available tyrosine, which is needed to create dopamine. Therefore there may not be enough dopamine, which can possibly lead to symptoms similar to conditions like Fibromyalgia and Parkinson’s (but not actually Parkinson’s). People who have low levels of tyrosine, and dopamine, sometimes take a supplement called L-tyrosine, which may help the body to produce enough dopamine to alleviate symptoms and feel better. Instead of L-tyrosine, a doctor may prescribe Levadopa, a prescription of l-dopa, to restore dopamine levels. Extracts of Mucuna pruriens, or velvet bean, can be purchased as an herbal supplement with up to 99% pure l-dopa. http://www.livestrong.com/article/25194-symptoms-low-dopamine-levels

There may also not be enough BH4 to help convert tryptophan-hydroxylase to serotonin. This may cause low levels of serotonin, which possibly lead to symptoms of anxiety, depression, headaches, insomnia and Fibromyalgia. People who have low levels of serotonin sometimes take a time-release supplement of 5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan). There are lots of warnings on the internet that 5-HTP should NEVER be taken with an SSRI antidepressant. Also, in some cases, SSRI medications can reduce dopamine levels, which can exacerbate the symptoms of low-dopamine with gs224, anyway.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Maybe you're not at liberty to discuss, but I'm curious how you're able to obtain it. After researching it for a while, I don't see any other realistic way to increase BH4 other than Kuvan, but my understanding was that it's only available with prescription for a very specific indication now.
@kangaSue 's links explain how.

The key for me was my high phenylalanine on the plasma amino test after taking tyrosine. I also have GCH1 mutations as described by @SWAlexander which are pretty common and QDPR. These genes have the effect of mild PKU. The effect of the different genes is explained here - note this is not the PKU page which is related to PAH mutations.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/tetrahydrobiopterin-deficiency/

BioMarin has a team that can help with insurance approvals. I think the price has come down with the generic competition.
Do you have any references that provide evidence of this? I spent several hours reviewing the literature for my post after the one you replied to, and I can find only a single study that measured NO directly in ME, while all the rest are looking at metabolites, synthase activity, or indirect measures, but all of which seem to support an increase in iNOS activity. I'm willing to believe NO itself could be depleted in ME, I just would like to see any direct evidence that might exist. It seems pretty obvious that iNOS should be upregulated in ME (and one study supports that), but I'd really like to see support for the notion that NO availability in vivo is then abnormal due to this.
I had originally read through as many Pall articles as possible as well as the Morris and Maes oxidative and nitrosative stress article I've posted on several occasions. NO test strips showed I was short of NO and using NO boosters has markedly helped symptoms and reduced my high BP a bit.
Are you not worried about doing further damage by increasing toxic NO metabolites by doing this, or do you feel you can offset that with other things (the supplements Pall advocates for example, as you mentioned)?
I was at first, but there seems to be an inverse relationship between NO and ONOO-. I believe I reacted well to BH4 because I was already using the other supplements Pall suggested.
I think the evidence supports this), but at the same time doing so also provides more raw material for kynurenine synthesis and so could increase the amount of neurotoxic kynurenine metabolites if a person didn't do anything else to prevent that (and I still cannot fathom how OMF arrived at the idea of giving people l-kynurenine as a treatment).
I think the key thing is that B6 gets depleted. It's used in over 100 reactions and is critical for several things important for ME/CFS patients, including sphingolipids, oxalate depletion, methylation, heme production, etc.
I would also be interested in which dosage of BH4 Kuvan has helped you @Learner1
I started at 10mg but eventually found I was crashing at 2pm, so went to 20mg which has had a sustainable effect for 2 years. So, I'm using 1 100mg powder packet every 5 days, or 18 every 90 days.
I'm especially interested in CNSA-001 (Sepiapterin) as it is a cheaper alternative
Really? Doesn't look cheaper to me. What's the multiplier between sapropterin and sepiapterin?
Screenshot_20220220-155604.png

Sepiapterin Administration Raises Tissue BH4 Levels More Efficiently Than BH4 Supplement in Normal Mice
Looks like a moneymaker for some pharmaceutical company...:rolleyes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699614/ reports median plasma BH4 levels in patients with this genotype were reduced by approximately 80%. Several potentially serious health issues could result from an 80% reduction in BH4 levels.

There may not be enough BH4 to convert phenylalanine to tyrosine. Therefore, phenylalanine can build up in body tissue and cause health issues (like high blood pressure
Correct. I was chronically a little low in dopamine. My ND had me take 6g of tyrosine daily after I reported being so lethargic I couldn't talk myself into getting off the sofa. That perked me up. That's when I had phenylalanine show up high on the plasma amino acids, as because I was supplementing tyrosine, it backed up.
Additionally, there will be lower available tyrosine, which is needed to create dopamine. Therefore there may not be enough dopamine, which can possibly lead to symptoms similar to conditions like Fibromyalgia and Parkinson’s (but not actually Parkinson’s). People who have low levels of tyrosine, and dopamine, sometimes take a supplement called L-tyrosine, which may help the body to produce enough dopamine to alleviate symptoms and feel better. Instead of L-tyrosine, a doctor may prescribe Levadopa, a prescription of l-dopa, to restore dopamine levels. Extracts of Mucuna pruriens, or velvet bean, can be purchased as an herbal supplement with up to 99% pure l-dopa. http://www.livestrong.com/article/25194-symptoms-low-dopamine-levels
Correct. Interestingly, my mom had a non-dementia form of Parkinson's for 18 years. Another thing about Parkinson's is impaired mito complex 1, which can happen due to peroxynitrites.
 

mitoMAN

Senior Member
Messages
627
Location
Germany/Austria
Really? Doesn't look cheaper to me. What's the multiplier between sapropterin and sepiapterin?
We are paying 4$ per 1000mg so that would be 0.08$ per 20mg Dosage.
(Having 500 Grams Synthesized for our Group)


Sadly we dont have access to insurance covered BH4 Kuvan in Europe. Its extremly pricey here. But Sepapterin seems a cheaper and at least similar effective alternative. (Even if you suspect the study to be financially motivated which I doubt since it was independant of the CNSA-001 group)
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
We are paying 4$ per 1000mg so that would be 0.08$ per 20mg Dosage.
(Having 500 Grams Synthesized for our Group)


Sadly we dont have access to insurance covered BH4 Kuvan in Europe. Its extremly pricey here. But Sepapterin seems a cheaper and at least similar effective alternative. (Even if you suspect the study to be financially motivated which I doubt since it was independant of the CNSA-001 group)
Ok, so how do people buy this? I know a bunch of people who can use it.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
NO test strips showed I was short of NO and using NO boosters has markedly helped symptoms and reduced my high BP a bit.
I did find a study that indicates, if I'm understanding it correctly, that these strips may not be a good indicator of plasma NO levels based on saliva readings.

I was at first, but there seems to be an inverse relationship between NO and ONOO-. I believe I reacted well to BH4 because I was already using the other supplements Pall suggested.
Right, and I guess simply by providing adequate BH4 you hopefully prevent the uncoupling of NOS and so won't be producing O2- instead of NO. I had forgotten that part.

I think the key thing is that B6 gets depleted. It's used in over 100 reactions and is critical for several things important for ME/CFS patients, including sphingolipids, oxalate depletion, methylation, heme production, etc.
I should also point out, as I had completely forgotten, that the connection here with IDO/kynurenine is more than just analogous as I implied.

Both BH4 synthesis and IDO activity are upregulated by the same inflammatory signals, but BH4 synthesis is actually then inhibited by xanthurenic acid (XA) (Pires et al., 2020), which is a downstream metabolite of the kynurenine -> 3-hydroxykynurenine (3-HK) pathway (the conversion towards this direction performed by KMO, which again is also upregulated by similar inflammatory signals).

fnins-13-01013-g001.jpg


When vitamin B6 is depleted, the downstream conversion of 3-HK onwards to NAD becomes inhibited, which then favors more production of XA instead, and so B6 depletion could also inhibit BH4 synthesis in this way (Oxenkrug, 2013) in an inflammatory state.

I've probably already gone seemingly far enough off topic, but BH4 also is crucial in CD4/8 T cell proliferation, and can actually rescue T cells from suppression by kynurenine. So increasing BH4 could potentially be a good thing in the case of a chronic infection, and potentially a bad thing in the case of autoimmunity. If no ME researchers are currently looking at BH4, it seems like they really should be, especially before they throw more kynurenine at patients.
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
potentially a bad thing in the case of autoimmunity.
I have 3 kinds of autoimmunity - BH4 has not been a problem at all.
If no ME researchers are currently looking at BH4, it seems like they really should be, especially before they throw more kynurenine at them
Well ron davis was looking at bh4 he mentioned in his october update.
Laurel Crosby at the Stanford Genome Technology Center is looking into it ,- it was on the agenda at this year's Stanford research meeting.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I'm starting (very carefully) in March with L-tyrosine, available in the US and Europe: pure encapsulations L-Tyrosin https://www.medpex.de/pure-encapsul...bi25YK7DSPtysl4GQ6pp0NBOsHbTLOVRoCmLwQAvD_BwE
Tyrosine would solve the dopamine problem but would not help the many other things BH4 does.

Things to watch out for - high blood pressure, heart racing, irritability and other symptoms of high dopamine.
I did find a study that indicates, if I'm understanding it correctly, that these strips may not be a good indicator of plasma NO levels based on saliva readings.
https://www.nutraingredients-usa.co...ps-help-consumers-athletes-optimize-NO-levels

In addition to using the saliva test strips to measure low NO, my exercise ability increased and high blood pressure decreased slightly after taking either the Berkeley Life or the Humann NO boosting products. Same thing happens with Kuvan, so seems the test strips are correct.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Berkeley Test CEO Shawn Green, PhD said the test strips, whose effectiveness has now been further validated by the patent grant, can help both groups.
So the CEO of the company that sells the strips, as well as "NO boosting" products, says they work; that's not surprising. I don't think the US Patent Office validates effectiveness of medical devices though. I don't see any evidence for 3rd party testing/validation included in their patent application.

Here is another study looking specifically at the Berkeley and HumanN test stripts, which concludes:
  • Lab measures of Saliva and Serum nitrate do not correlate significantly.
  • NO strips measurements provide a reasonable surrogate for salivary, but not systemic nitrite levels
So basically, yes, they work for saliva, but they don't tell you about blood nitric oxide levels.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
So the CEO of the company that sells the strips, as well as "NO boosting" products, says they work; that's not surprising. I don't think the US Patent Office validates effectiveness of medical devices though. I don't see any evidence for 3rd party testing/validation included in their patent application.

Here is another study looking specifically at the Berkeley and HumanN test stripts, which concludes:

So basically, yes, they work for saliva, but they don't tell you about blood nitric oxide levels.
I'm more interested in whether they help me function or not vs arguing about semantics.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
Today my hematologist told me to stop Tyrosine and see what's happening with daily Heparin.
My final diagnosis Antiphospholipid syndrome (Faktor 5 Leiden).
She believes Heparin could clear some blockages since Antiphospholipid syndrome effects also the endocranial system. Starting today with daily Heparin shots and no Tyrosine for one month. I will report back.

Side note: since I add a little more salt to my daily diet POTS is much better.
Symptoms of low sodium in blood
  1. weakness.
  2. fatigue or low energy.
  3. headache.
  4. nausea.
  5. vomiting.
  6. muscle cramps or spasms.
  7. confusion.
  8. irritability.
https://www.healthline.com/health/hyponatremia
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Today my hematologist told me to stop Tyrosine and see what's happening with daily Heparin.
My final diagnosis Antiphospholipid syndrome (Faktor 5 Leiden).
She believes Heparin could clear some blockages since Antiphospholipid syndrome effects also the endocranial system. Starting today with daily Heparin shots and no Tyrosine for one month. I will report back.

Side note: since I add a little more salt to my daily diet POTS is much better.
Symptoms of low sodium in blood
  1. weakness.
  2. fatigue or low energy.
  3. headache.
  4. nausea.
  5. vomiting.
  6. muscle cramps or spasms.
  7. confusion.
  8. irritability.
https://www.healthline.com/health/hyponatremia
Sounds like you are making progress. What was the rationale for dropping tyrosine?

Did the doctor test for anti-phospholipid antibodies? I believe that would be different than factor 5 Leiden, though they definitely would interact with each other.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
Did the doctor test for anti-phospholipid antibodies?
Oh yes, I have all the needed tests. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...-autoimmune-disease.82395/page-9#post-2391845

"What was the rationale for dropping tyrosine?"
It is really an experiment, to see if heparin removes a potential blockage that may hinder the hypothalamus from releasing hormones to the hepatic vein. Or if the pancreas is blogged by a blood clot delivering glucagon to the brain. After all, the brain and the muscles need lots of sugar to function properly, since neither can´t store any.
 
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SWAlexander

Senior Member
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