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[Study] Butyrate and bacteria levels CFS (Nov 2021)

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Your burtyrate looks really good though bertiedog. It doesn't have to be bang on the midpoint really. Mine is low but it seems to be on the low end for healthy controls (I contacted biomesight to check this) so I think that's ok really.

But my beneficial bacteria are way off like extremely low:

Screenshot_2021-11-12-20-02-31-32_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
pre and probiotic effects

my IBS-d was most helped by going on the Tibetan wind diet.

Wind is part of whats wrong in the gut with "d'.

The diet emphasizes root vegetables, cooked thoroughly, very little raw food, bone broths with lamb or beef you've made for yourself. Often this is described as smooth, oily warm foods.

Many issues calm down on this diet.

Avoid bitter greens is a key. So I seem to handle lettuces ok but not kale or these far more intense foods which frankly are really hard on the gut.

I also take herbs for digestion, chinese herbs which also help.

I was recently PEM killed by:

Farro (whole wheat instead of rice and had husks on it)
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Have you had any symptomatic improvements from taking this?

Well I have a lot less pain from SIBO but think the prebiotics have made a big difference regarding that because I have taken them daily for over 4 months even when I have run out of the butyrate for a few days.

I do think getting SIBO under control has helped my sleep a lot because I used to frequently have problems getting to sleep because of the pain and discomfort under my ribs but the only time I get that now is when I have a Tikka. I have overcome that I think by adding some natural yogurt with the curry. I had to stop eating it because of the pain it gave me so am pleased I can have one once a week which saves me having to cook.

BTW I did have a higher level than normal of D Lactate show up and see that Fatigue was mentioned as an issue with this and I know this has often come up in various studies of ME. That was the only toxin that was highlighted with hydrogen sulphide and methane only showing up as minimal amounts.

I do have a high fibre diet as I eat lots of nuts and seeds daily, psyllium husks, berries, vegetables, oats as well as FOS and PHGG.

Screenshot 2021-11-13 at 14.31.16.png
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
BTW I did have a higher level than normal of D Lactate show up and see that Fatigue was mentioned as an issue with this and I know this has often come up in various studies of ME.

If I'm reading this right, your D-lactate levels are over 8 times higher than the average for healthy controls. This seems very high to me but I don't know much about D-lactate levels.
 

BrightCandle

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Oddly my toxins list shows nothing, its all 0. However when I looked through the detailed view for my bacteria I found a list of bacteria that are known to produce Lactic Acid as a toxin and they were well above normal. I thus don't trust the nice little breakouts all that much. It may well be the case the total quantity is low or it might be they don't count those rarer ones in the totals. You will want to review the stuff very abnormal from the detailed view (you can sort by percentage where 50% is normal and 0% is low and 100% high) and look at the stuff that is very far from the usual and see what it does.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
If I'm reading this right, your D-lactate levels are over 8 times higher than the average for healthy controls. This seems very high to me but I don't know much about D-lactate levels.

Hi Jim

Looks as if my problem with D Lactate is common in ME and Fibro. I know I have cellular hypoxia because of the test on my autonomic nervous system I had at Breakspear Medical Centre way back in 2012 which showed this up. Ever since then I have been using an oxygen concentrator first thing in the morning and after lunch and exercise. This was their recommendation.

I also get the pain mentioned in the following article whilst walking especially in my legs which can feel like lead. However I do average over 8000 steps a day but this would never be possible without the oxygen concentrator.

I did take Bimuno which is a source of GOS but I didn't notice any difference regarding the hypoxia and pain. I also followed the vast majority of suggestions which were thrown up from the result of the Biomesight as per the Microbiome Prescription site which originated from Jason H. (cannot remember his full name).

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2016/03/01/lactate-fibromyalgia-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

Pam
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I see that among other things, butyrate is important for the regulation of blood sugar levels and glycogen storage (carbs are stored as glycogen in both muscles and the liver) which makes me wonder if a (ketone ester) supplement of beta-hydroxybutyrate would be a more helpful measure if just butyrate supplementing isn't improving the butyrate level?

Would also be interesting to know what the beta-hydroxybutyrate blood level is in those whose butyrate level is low. Apparently, you can measure this with a ketone meter.

https://hvmn.com/blogs/blog/exogenous-ketones-beta-hydroxybutyrate-or-bhb-all-you-need-to-know
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28398950/
 
Messages
39
I just went back over a Genova test I had a few years ago and noticed this. I'm not sure in what way the Butyrate Concentration is relevant when compared to the percentage distrubtion with Propionate and Acetate(?).

Is the total Butyrate concentration relevant or is it just the distibrution? I noticed in the sample reports posted above, it's just the distribution that is measured.

Butyrate.png
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Is the total Butyrate concentration relevant or is it just the distibrution? I noticed in the sample reports posted above, it's just the distribution that is measured.

I could be reading this wrong, but the way I'm reading it, all of your SCFA's are very low as a whole, and your Butyrate itself, is very low.

The percentages just show a percentage of your already low SCFA's.

Maybe somebody with more experience reading these tests can speak to this more clearly.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
So what is the consensus on supplementing butyrate? I am due to receive some tomorrow because the new online doctor of hope I follow recommends it for removing harmful fats in the gut. He says that to avoid exacerbation of symptoms from butyrate, you should supplement with good fats (omega 3,6,9) and phospholipids.

I read somewhere as well that the butyrate producing bacteria in the gut are fed by a certain type of prebiotic and not by arbitrary ones. I will try and hoke this out again, but I'm struggling to remember the source.
 
Messages
39
So what is the consensus on supplementing butyrate? I am due to receive some tomorrow because the new online doctor of hope I follow recommends it for removing harmful fats in the gut. He says that to avoid exacerbation of symptoms from butyrate, you should supplement with good fats (omega 3,6,9) and phospholipids.

I read somewhere as well that the butyrate producing bacteria in the gut are fed by a certain type of prebiotic and not by arbitrary ones. I will try and hoke this out again, but I'm struggling to remember the source.

What are the exacerbation of symptoms from Butyrate?
 
Messages
39
I could be reading this wrong, but the way I'm reading it, all of your SCFA's are very low as a whole, and your Butyrate itself, is very low.

The percentages just show a percentage of your already low SCFA's.

Maybe somebody with more experience reading these tests can speak to this more clearly.

Coming at it with a fresh pair of eyes today, I think you're right Jim. All my SCFA's are very low (or at least, were low at the time of testing).

Additionally, my F. Prausnitizii were also very low (if I'm reading my results correctly - as the ref range seems to be reverse on this one). I tried to get my head around the 'Quintile Distrubtion' last night but it was a no go. Will try again.
1642262883466.png
Butyrate2.png
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Additionally, my F. Prausnitizii were also very low

I think your F. Prausnitizii are good. They are in the upper range of normal. The upper end of normal is 4.7 E9. Your tests results were just a little lower than that, at 4.3 E9

A low reading would be below 5.8 "E7". Notice the low end of normal is 5.8 "E7" and the upper end of normal is 4.7 "E9". Your test results of 4.3 "E9", is higher than the 5.8 "E7", which is the low end of normal.

I hope this makes sense. Again, maybe somebody else can clarify if I'm reading this right.
 
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ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
I tried to get my head around the 'Quintile Distrubtion' last night but it was a no go.

I think the Qunitile distribution is the number of people that have taken the same test, divided into 5 parts - (Quintiles). Your Qunitile distribution or amount of F. Prausnitizii is in the top 1/5 or top 20% of others that have taken the test.

Again, if someone can better clarify, please do.
 
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Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
...and here's the abstract from the original pre-print:

Deficient butyrate-producing capacity in the gut microbiome of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients is associated with fatigue symptoms (Guo et al., 2021)(pre-print)
Background Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS) is a complex, debilitating disease of unknown cause for which there is no specific therapy. Patients suffering from ME/CFS commonly experience persistent fatigue, post-exertional malaise, cognitive dysfunction, sleep disturbances, orthostatic intolerance, fever and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Recent evidence implicates gut microbiome dysbiosis in ME/CFS. However, most prior studies are limited by small sample size, differences in clinical criteria used to define cases, limited geographic sampling, reliance on bacterial culture or 16S rRNA gene sequencing, or insufficient consideration of confounding factors that may influence microbiome composition. In the present study, we evaluated the fecal microbiome in the largest prospective, case-control study to date (n=106 cases, n=91 healthy controls), involving subjects from geographically diverse communities across the United States.

Results Using shotgun metagenomics and qPCR and rigorous statistical analyses that controlled for important covariates, we identified decreased relative abundance and quantity of Faecalibacterium, Roseburia, and Eubacterium species and increased bacterial load in feces of subjects with ME/CFS. These bacterial taxa play an important role in the production of butyrate, a multifunctional bacterial metabolite that promotes human health by regulating energy metabolism, inflammation, and intestinal barrier function. Functional metagenomic and qPCR analyses were consistent with a deficient microbial capacity to produce butyrate along the acetyl-CoA pathway in ME/CFS. Metabolomic analyses of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) confirmed that fecal butyrate concentration was significantly reduced in ME/CFS. Further, we found that the degree of deficiency in butyrate-producing bacteria correlated with fatigue symptom severity among ME/CFS subjects. Finally, we provide evidence that IBS comorbidity is an important covariate to consider in studies investigating the microbiome of ME/CFS subjects, as differences in microbiota alpha diversity, some bacterial taxa, and propionate were uniquely associated with self-reported IBS diagnosis.

Conclusions Our findings indicate that there is a core deficit in the butyrate-producing capacity of the gut microbiome in ME/CFS subjects compared to healthy controls. The relationships we observed among symptom severity and these gut microbiome disturbances may be suggestive of a pathomechanistic linkage, however, additional research is warranted to establish any causal relationship. These findings provide support for clinical trials that explore the utility of dietary, probiotic and prebiotic interventions to boost colonic butyrate production in ME/CFS.