[Study] Butyrate and bacteria levels CFS (Nov 2021)

[godlovesatrier]

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/11/10/bacteria-fatigue-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

Cort's excellent writeup here, my eyes were drawn to this line:

The fact that more people with ME/CFS than healthy controls (10%-2%) were taking supplements (prebiotic fiber) which should have enhanced their levels of butyrate-producing bacteria present only increased the mystery about the low butyrate levels studies have consistently found in ME/CFS.

Study is here https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.27.21265575v1

The study essentially showed certain bacteria to be very low in ME patients, specifically

Fatigue was certainly the byword in this study as lower butyrate levels were associated with more fatigue and both general and/or physical fatigue were particularly associated with reduced levels of F. prausnitz, Coprococcus, and a few other bacteria.

Interestingly enough my s16 shows F. prausnitz as being 0.65% instead of the healthy control level of 5%. So it is WAY off. I recently started taking prebiotics and probiotics (this whole process has taken 8 months, I didn't just go up to a full dose straight away). And I find it really interesting what Cort says about ME patients already taking pre-biotics and yet prebiotics (which are meant to increase prausnitz and many other beneficial bacteria) didn't appear to have any effect at all on bacterial levels.

So basically I am probably wasting my time with the FOS and pysllium husk I recently added.

But it would help to explain why patients take pre and pro biotics and don't see any major gains. I have no idea what might be supressing these bacteria levels so that even interventions which should work don't work. Of course the data is hazy I am taking Cort at his word here.

Hip has an excellent post somewhere about pre and probiotic effects in ME patients.

And I know Joshua Leisk talked about butyrate all the time and how important it was. Maybe fibre isn't enough and the body really does need eggs and dairy sources to stimulate growth of these little critters? I've started on goats cheese again so I wonder if that will help.

Anyway I thought this was a really interesting study, partly because my s16 bacteria biome test results directly match the expected results for ME patients. I'll be getting re-tested at some point. But I was already taking 60 billion CFU a day of a 15 strain probiotic and was seeing benefits in function and energy and inflamation, but it didn't appear to have had an effect on my s16. Will have to see what my next test result looks like.

@BrightCandle @pamojja @Nuno

 

[ljimbo423]

I find this quote from Cort's blog really interesting. As I've read many posts here of people that think they don't have dysbiosis because they don't have Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) or gut symptoms.

both ME/CFS cohorts (those with and without IBS), had altered beta diversity;

i.e. whether they had IBS or not, the flora in the ME/CFS patients’ guts was markedly different than the flora found in the healthy controls’ guts.

 

[ljimbo423]

I had a CDSA done many years ago now, that found my levels of Butyrate in my gut to be not just low, but deficient. This is from the study-

Dramatically reduced butyrate levels (middle column) in ME/CFS patients (with IBS – green; without IBS – violet) compared to healthy controls.

Here is a link to the full paper and a PDF download.

This quote is from Cort's blog-

Reduced butyrate levels in ME/CFS then, could result in an inflammatory state in the gut and a weakened gut barrier to boot; which is perhaps just the right combination to spark an inflammatory response that ranges from the gut all the way to the brain.

 

[Consul]

I watced the massachussets me-cfs/fm annual meeting on youtube. A researcher there says that the gut bacterias are mostly anerobic while the bacteria you get from the prebiotics/probiotics are mostly aerobic. So it doesnt necessarily work to just supplement to get more gut butyrate. Also some ppl appear to get worse from doing this, they say there needs to be clinical trials. A better way might be fecal transplants, there are studies underway on this.

Another mentioned detail here is that plasma butyrate appear to be fine in me/cfs.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Interestingly my butyrate levels are not quite right but there not super low. Although this figure I've got here probably does match the study I guess. Biomesights data is there own so it's unclear how bad it is compared to healthy controls or if it's accurate. But here it is.

 

[ljimbo423]

Interestingly my butyrate levels are not quite right but there not super low. Although this figure I've got here probably does match the study I guess.

What does "midpoint" mean in your pic? Is that average for healthy controls?

 

[godlovesatrier]

Yes a better graph shows it here:

Problem is these graphs don't exclude sick people. So that's where the data is clouded. For more accurate data you have to use a site that does exclude it. Like microbiomeprescription. But Ken's site didn't really show my bacteria as being massively out which is a bit confusing. At any rate it's complex and he goes to great pains to explain that on his website and blog.

But overall the orange bar is the max and min I believe across the samples they've got. So even by that measure my bacterial level is low. But I haven't a clue how many with ME are included in that orange bar or if they've simply used healthy controls.

I'm going to email them and find out

 

[ljimbo423]

But I haven't a clue how many with ME are included in that orange bar or if they've simply used healthy controls.

I would think they use healthy controls. But thinking it don't make it true.

 

[BrightCandle]

Some of the comments to that post are very interesting too, one is a person doing 200+billion CFUs + probiotic foods daily and that did show improvements in ME symptoms to the point of mostly recovered in time.

My biomesight results are even less remarkable on these measures.

My Acetate is normal, 41% where the average is 42%
My Butyrate is 32% compared to the average of 41% so low but not disastrously so.
My F. prausnitz is the same 0.644%, average should be 5% 11%.

My Bifidobacterium's are basically nonexistent which is the big thing that stands out from the overall view although there is plenty of dysfunction even if biomesight gives me a satisfactory and 81% raiting.

Where my biomesight results seem to seriously show concerns is I have 10 different gram negative nasties in my guts that are their 100% result, ie they have never had a result that high before me and they range between 50 and 1000 times as much as normal. Those nasties do a variety of things but the biggest one produces lactic acid and the second is known for leaking the gut and further ones introduce ammonia and other toxins. I suspect none of us have the same nasties but I bet a look into the detailed data (which appears to be crashing for me on the site I can't view species level data) will show some really abnormal results for known bad guys.

Right now on this front I am on 50 billion CFUs of very specific probiotics targeting known problems. Then I am now also taking in daily Kefir, Kombucha and fermented foods like Kimchi. Its improved my constipation and made my skin notably spottier. I get the impression from the comments and linked posts to this I ought to use probiotics more as weapons to introduce bacteria that fight the species I have issues with rather than trying to add what I am missing.

 

[BrightCandle]

Since F. prausnitzii dies in Oxygen I don't think we are likely to see a probiotic pill containing it anytime soon. To boost it all Biomesight has is eating probiotic high fibres foods and apparently it also positively responds to exercise!

Biomesight suggests increasing these foods:
Banana, Onion ,Red wine, Cranberries, Matcha, Oat,Pomegranate,Asparagus,Apples,Cashews,Carrots, Green tea,Wheat,Green banana,Apricots,Cherries,Potato,White beans,Artichoke,Oranges,Leek,Chicory

 

[ljimbo423]

I suspect none of us have the same nasties but I bet a look into the detailed data (which appears to be crashing for me on the site I can't view species level data) will show some really abnormal results for known bad guys.

My CDSA showed I had pathogenic levels of Pseudomonas Aeruginosa - 4+. Which is antibiotic resistant and a very nasty bug. I can't tolerate antibiotics but I do take antibiotic herbs.

I haven't retested so I don't know if I still have it or not. I also don't know how accurate CDSA tests are.

 

[Irat]

Fresh harvest fruits ,berries unwashed are the best for gut health.an apple for example contains more than 100 million bacterias,plus the pectin boost butyrate.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Just throwing this in Bacillus Coagulans strain GBI-30, 6086 may increase F Prausnitzii.

Results: Consumption of BC30 significantly increased populations of Faecalibacterium prausnitzii by 0.1 log10 cells/mL more than during consumption of the placebo (P = 0.03), whereas populations of Bacillus spp. increased significantly by 0.5 log10 cells/mL from baseline in volunteers who consumed BC30 (P = 0.007). LPS-stimulated PBMCs showed a 0.2 ng/mL increase in the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10 28 d after consumption of BC30 (P < 0.05), whereas the placebo did not affect IL-10, and no overall difference was found in the effect of the treatments.

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1446/4589930

 

[kangaSue]

Cort says; "The deeper the researchers dug, the more solid the low butyrate finding became. A metagenomic analysis snagged one source of the butyrate problem when it found that people with ME/CFS tended to be deficient in one of the two genes (the “but” gene) used to produce butyrate using the acetyl-CoA pathway gene. A functional analysis then indicated that the bacteria using that gene were the same bacteria that people with ME/CFS were missing. "

The pH of your gut can be a limiting factor around this pathway. Be interesting to see what pH level would be detected doing a Smart Pill Test.

https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1462-2920.13589
[ For bacteria that use the butyryl-CoA:acetate CoA-transferase route, acetate consumption and butyrate production are reported to increase at mildly acidic pH compared with near neutral pH ]

 

[seamyb]

Bacteria in the gut are known to finish the job of the liver for certain toxic compounds, for example the endogenously generated bilirubin. For those who believe they have some form of toxin causing their illness, this thread should peak their interest. Some toxin mitigating bacteria goes bye-bye, the toxin builds up in the intestines, gets reabsorbed by enterohepatic recirculation, possibly also causes increased permeability of the gut and then a toxin you've been creating for some time suddenly becomes pathogenic.

My illness started not so long after stopping an SSRI, which messes with serotonin levels (the highest of which are found in the gut), and I believe my exposure to toxic mold was about 7 years ago and it resides in my sinuses. I had about 6 years between exposure to being sick where I was fine.

Very interesting indeed. Now somebody tell me what to do to fix it. Hey guys, anybody got a cure for ME/CFS yet?

 

[godlovesatrier]

I would think they use healthy controls. But thinking it don't make it true.

Hey - yep you are right, most logical answer is usually right no? Aw man I have such an existential conundrum with my day job working with programming languages...life isn't logical ffs! my brain screams haha

Right anyway I got a reply from biomesight:

Hi
Unless you have selected a filter it is for all results. There's screen filters at the top of the pages where you can change what you are comparing against.
Please let us know if you need help finding the filters.

Best

So I did that and sadly there are only 6 CFS patients inc myself who have sent in sample data. Whilst I was closer to most ME patients, most ME patients in the sample had slightly better results than I do. But if all of them were already well into changes they made and they all only got one sample tested, then that would mean there results should be better. I guess Bright must be one of the 6 in the sample filter and I am another.

I'll see what my next test result looks like, but this will be after the pfizer jab so that will be slightly biased.

 

[bertiedog]

Here are my results from Biomesight this summer. I had been taking endless probiotics for years but after the results from Biomesight I was advised to add prebiotics so since then I have been taking at least 5g FOS daily and also Partially Hydrogenated Guar Gum. Also for about 3 months I was taking Bimuno which I think supplies GOS. All these have massively improved my SIBO but I still have IBS but that is also improved.

Sorry the images are rather ragged but I haven't used the screenshot facility before!

Pam

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hey Bertie,

Are these your results after taking the FOS and Guar gum? Or just the probiotics?

Thanks,

 

[bertiedog]

Hey Bertie,

Are these your results after taking the FOS and Guar gum? Or just the probiotics?

Thanks,

No these results were after years of probiotics but not high dose ones. In the New Year I will probably redo the test which hopefully will show some improvements regarding the Butyrate. I have also been taking 2 daily of Sodium Butyrate from Body Bio which I forgot to mention.

Pam

 

[splusholia]

No these results were after years of probiotics but not high dose ones. In the New Year I will probably redo the test which hopefully will show some improvements regarding the Butyrate. I have also been taking 2 daily of Sodium Butyrate from Body Bio which I forgot to mention.

Pam

Have you had any symptomatic improvements from taking this?