Strep throat, infectious over activation & XMRV?

[FernRhizome]

Hi Folks:
This may prove to not have an XMRV connection but I thought I'd post it here initially because it has to do with infectious activation. Strep throat turns out to be able to cause behavior and mental disorders.

This is interesting. I have CFS and I have a brother who has both Asperger's and OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).

I read about the strep antibody over reaction and OCD connection in an amazing recently published book called Saving Sammy. Children getting a strep throat can end up with very severe obsessive compulsive disorder, eating disorders, and other types of neurological condtions. I'll post the press release below. What happens is the strep antibodies go sky high and enter the brain. This of course doesn't happen in all children, but I wonder if there's any chance XMRV could be at the root of why it happens in some kids. It's once again and infectious situation that goes out of control. If it's caught it can be treated and kids can recover, if not, their lives are quite ruined. The author of Saving Sammy is starting a national campaign to alert the general public about this. I've e-mailed her to ask if she is aware of XMRV research and she wasn't so I sent her info Here's a link to an article and a related press release below.

Which raises the interesting question as to whether XMRV will reactivate only other viruses or also bacterial infections (strep, and lyme).

http://mywaybusiness.com/strep-throat-may-be-cause-of-many-child-mental-illnesses/961/

View attachment PressRelease.PDF

 

[HopingSince88]

Fern,
This is interesting to me wrt my daughter (age 31 now), who has classic CFS symptoms, but not officially dx'd. She is on disability (due to IC and Crohns and a FOO) and is very sick. One of the things that has recurred over the years is a Group B strep in her urine. It just keeps coming back. She had multiple bouts per year with strep throat as a child. She always seemed to be on antibiotics. GBS caused a severe kidney infection that caused her sudden crash into CFS about 12 years ago. Another interesting thing about her is that she has developed OCD. She has also experienced through out her young adulthood several throat infections with big white pussy spots, that the labs could not figure out what the infection was. It looked like strep, but came up negative in all the tests that were run.

 

[flybro]

throat infections with big white pussy spots, that the labs could not figure out what the infection was. It looked like strep, but came up negative in all the tests that were run.

I've had the pussy white spots, and blisters, and nothing showing up from a swab taken. The swab made the throat symptoms worse as well.


As for OCD, i wouldn't say I have it, however I do have to keep my hands in my pockets to stop myself touching things, like other peoples coats, ineresting surfaces, just odd stuff like that. My brain goes 'oh wow that looks nice, I wonder what it feels like,' and my hands go to touch it.

My daughter who is ASD, had quite a few OCD behaviours when she was younger, she is 21 and hardly has any now.

 

[Hysterical Woman]

Thanks for posting Fern

Fern,

Thank you so much for posting this. I have forwarded it to a friend who will be definitely interested in the strep/OCD connection.

I was also suprised to read in the "Could it be B-12" book, that B-12 deficiency can also contribute to OCD.

Thanks again,

HW

 

[oerganix]

Zinc for strep

After I totally crashed from CFIDS the first time I had strep throat every two months for a couple of years. Then I found out about zinc. Since then I have taken zinc daily and when a sore throat threatened, I sucked zinc lozenges. Zinc does something to the bacteria, which I now have forgotten, but something to do with being "gram negative". I have not had another strep throat since I started the zinc supplement and started using zinc lozenges whenever I got a sore throat. I haven't even had a sore throat in 15 years.

Here is a story of a little boy who had a similar story and what his health practitioner did about it, including adding zinc to his diet.

http://www.totalwellnessnutrition.com/CS7_PoorlyFunctioningImmuneSystemChronicStrepThroat.htm

He believes that getting strep throat is an indication of a poorly functioning immune system. Imagine that!

 

[Sing]

Thanks for that tip, Oerganix. I first started to appreciate zinc as a teenager with a few pimples. Zinc would make them go away in half the time. Zinc helps with other skin healing jobs. But I hadn't thought of it in relation to sore throats. I start to get a sore throat whenever I am overtired or over stressed, but it goes away whenever I rest deeply again. I don't want that kind of bacteria, strep, hanging around anymore than I can help!

 

[FernRhizome]

Glad this posting has been useful! Hopingsince88 that's fascinating (sadly) about your daughter's ongoing strep bouts and Flybro about wanting to touch everything.
I just wonder if XMRV could be the underlying cause for the strep getting out of control? The amazing thing is that it IS treatable but it needs more than the usual strep treatment. ~FernRhizome

Here is the website for the book Saving Sammy, which is a pretty gripping read: http://www.savingsammy.net/

And the name of continually active strep conditions causing neurological problems is the following: PANDAS Syndrome is a sort of acquired or rapid onset of what we understand as OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder). PANDAS Syndrome is an acronym for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal infections.

PANDAS Syndrome is a sort of acquired or rapid onset of what we understand as OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder). PANDAS Syndrome is an acronym for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal infections. The symptoms, according to the National Institute of Health, are:

0. Presence of OCD and/or a tic disorder(similar to Tourette's Syndrome)
0. Pediatric onset of symptoms
0. Episodic course of symptom severity
0. A positive throat culture for strep. or history of Scarlet Fever.

 

[Ronan]

Just a word of warning on the Zinc. You have to be sure not to take too much of it as your body cant get rid of exces Zinc like it can with other supplemets such as Vitamin C through urine. On another note i recently had to take antibiotics for a strep infection in my urinary tract which the doctor said was a very uncommon place to have it. Been unwell with ME for 8 years so depressed immune system would be the cause im sure.

 

[oerganix]

Yes, too much can be just as bad as too little. Too much zinc can overbalance copper, which is needed for nerve function. I take 50mg/day. It would be less for a child. I also read somewhere that the PANDAS type of illness can affect adults as well as children.

 

[SickOfSickness]

There is also a version that is not autoimmune. PITAND where the IT stands for "Infection-Triggered".

In case anyone is interested, a good link is http://www.webpediatrics.com/pandas.html

 

[Hysterical Woman]

Yes, too much can be just as bad as too little. Too much zinc can overbalance copper, which is needed for nerve function. I take 50mg/day. It would be less for a child. I also read somewhere that the PANDAS type of illness can affect adults as well as children.

Hi oerganix,

Do you know of an accurate test for copper and zinc? Did you have yours tested to decide on the dose?

Thanks,

HW

 

[oerganix]

Hi oerganix,

Do you know of an accurate test for copper and zinc? Did you have yours tested to decide on the dose?

Thanks,

Maxine

Sorry, I don't know of such a test. I did my own "test", that is I asked my body, in meditation, whether it needed regular supplementation and then, whether the dose I was taking was appropriate, and it said yes and yes. Not scientific, but it works for me - asking my body and listening to the response. I don't always get a clear answer, but I did on this. And my experience since has borne this out - no more strep throat. No side affects that I know of. The caveat on not taking too much is more in line with countering the idea that if a little is good, then a lot is better, which is not often true, if ever. (I told a friend whose son had strep throat about zinc and she gave him way too much, until he was vomiting, thinking it was like vitamin C where the body will excrete any excess. Not true with zinc.)

 

[Hysterical Woman]

Copper/Zinc imbalances

Sorry, I don't know of such a test. I did my own "test", that is I asked my body, in meditation, whether it needed regular supplementation and then, whether the dose I was taking was appropriate, and it said yes and yes. Not scientific, but it works for me - asking my body and listening to the response. I don't always get a clear answer, but I did on this. And my experience since has borne this out - no more strep throat. No side affects that I know of. The caveat on not taking too much is more in line with countering the idea that if a little is good, then a lot is better, which is not often true, if ever. (I told a friend whose son had strep throat about zinc and she gave him way too much, until he was vomiting, thinking it was like vitamin C where the body will excrete any excess. Not true with zinc.)

>>

Hi oerganix,

Thanks for the explanation. It is important to listen to one's body.

FWIW, I recently got a copy of a book for the library entitled: "Why Am I Always So Tired" by Ann Louise Gittleman, M.S., C.N.S. In that books she says that the normal blood and urinalysis tests don't show a very clear picture of actual levels of zinc and copper in the body. She recommends a tissue analysis test using hair which, of course, is controversial. She believes that too much copper (and zinc deficiency)can cause all sorts of problems in the body.

She does provide an interesting questionnaire in the book to try to determine if your copper level is too high:

Copper Overload Questionnaire:

1. Do you eat frequent light means but still lack energy?
2. Does your mind tend to race, even when your body is exhausted?
3. Do you consider yourself a highly creative person, but one who is frequently anxious and drained of energy?
4. Do you tend to daydream and live in your head?
5. Do you frequently experience insomnia because your mind simply won't calm down?
6. Are you prone to emotional and physical highs and lows?
7. Do you have frequent colds and flus, slow wound healing, lack of taste of appetite or white spots on your fingernails?
8. Do you suffer from any of the following conditons - migraine, headaches, hyperactivity, panic attacks, mood swings, depression, premenstrual tension, or skin problems - for which no underlying cause has been identified?
9. Do you have high estrogen levels or use the birth control pill, estrogen replacement therapy, or a copper IUD?
10. Do you either crave or adversely react to high-copper foods such as chocolate, nuts, avocados, and soy products?
11. Does your hair have a natural orange-red tint or copper colored highlights?
12. Do you ahve dark areas of pigmentation or skin blotches on your face?

Of course, this book is for the general public and not for CFS patients. Who knows how multiple viral infections, abnormal immune systems, or retroviral infections would have an impact on symptoms/answers.

And another FYI regarding zinc from "Enclyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements" by Michael Murray, N.D.

"Safety Issues:

The principal toxic effects of zinc occur with prolonged intake levels greater than 150 mg per day. These effects include copper-deficeincy anemia,reduced HDL-cholestrol levels, and depressed immune function. Acute toxicity is quite rare because the ingestion of amounts large enough to cause toxicity symptoms (2 grams per kilogram of body weight) usually provokes vomiting."

Take care,

HW

 

[SickOfSickness]

Hm, thanks for this info. I am pretty sure I need more zinc... among many other things... hard for me to keep track.

I am thinking maybe go for 100% RDA of zinc, and then ramp up to 150%. See if I feel better or worse. If better, then try taking even more, and on and on, until a point where it seems like I took too much zinc...?

 

[oerganix]

Hm, thanks for this info. I am pretty sure I need more zinc... among many other things... hard for me to keep track.

I am thinking maybe go for 100% RDA of zinc, and then ramp up to 150%. See if I feel better or worse. If better, then try taking even more, and on and on, until a point where it seems like I took too much zinc...?

I would suggest you not increase to the point where it seems you took too much, as zinc accumulates in the body. The point of taking more zinc is to prevent or cure certain bacterial infections (gram negative, if that's what strep is), so the number and severity of those might be a better guide for you to determine when you've increased enough. I take 50mg/day and that prevents me from getting strep throat, helps me heal faster, etc. You can always suck on zinc lozenges during a sore throat episode, temporarily increasing the amount you are taking. 150mg is the maximum for healthy people so I think it would be better to stay below that, if it is effective for you at a lower dose.

Of course, it's your choice and your decision. Just my two cents worth. Best wishes.

 

[Hysterical Woman]

I would suggest you not increase to the point where it seems you took too much, as zinc accumulates in the body. The point of taking more zinc is to prevent or cure certain bacterial infections (gram negative, if that's what strep is), so the number and severity of those might be a better guide for you to determine when you've increased enough. I take 50mg/day and that prevents me from getting strep throat, helps me heal faster, etc. You can always suck on zinc lozenges during a sore throat episode, temporarily increasing the amount you are taking. 150mg is the maximum for healthy people so I think it would be better to stay below that, if it is effective for you at a lower dose.

Of course, it's your choice and your decision. Just my two cents worth. Best wishes.

Hi SOS,

I think oerganix is right - gotta be careful with zinc. Even tho I posted some information from a book that says "acute toxicity is rare", that doesn't mean a build up to high levels is safe.

Good luck and let us know how you are doing.

Take care,

HW

 

[bertiedog]

I've had the pussy white spots, and blisters, and nothing showing up from a swab taken. The swab made the throat symptoms worse as well.


As for OCD, i wouldn't say I have it, however I do have to keep my hands in my pockets to stop myself touching things, like other peoples coats, ineresting surfaces, just odd stuff like that. My brain goes 'oh wow that looks nice, I wonder what it feels like,' and my hands go to touch it.

My daughter who is ASD, had quite a few OCD behaviours when she was younger, she is 21 and hardly has any now.

I am resurecting this thread cos suffering yet again with another severe throat infection. I have very frequent severe sore throats thoughout the winter and I always have the white ulcers on my tonsils and have throughout my life. I am 62 now and have another one of these throats which make me feel dreadful.

About 10 years ago the GP used to swap my throats but they always came back negative however I usually respond to antibiotics, I don't seem to be able to get well without them. This one has lasted 6 days so far and I am very fed up with feeling so ill. I have also had a more or less constant migraines with it but today have had acunpuncture cos cannot stand feeling so bad.

Its so annnoying cos I was doing quite well until this hit.

I am XMRV + and feel there must be some connection.

Pam

 

[lartista]

This is interesting. My now 10 year old had been diagnosed as a strep carrier for a few years but then we finally got it cleared up. She was also diagnosed with a highly over sensitive issue. She has some tendencies to obessive compolsive disorder. But that seems to be in check. She doesn't like the way things feel often, from hand soaps after washing to lip balms. She is very texure oriented.

I on the other hand sit here with what I beleive is strep throat. My doctor wants me to get it cultured before issuing another antibiotic. But in Italy, you wake up early and walk a distance to get to the hopistal lab anywhere between 7:30 a.m. and 10:00 a.m. Then you wait behind easily 70 other persons to be called. All of this seems a little too much for me at that hour. Also oddly my spect brain scan in Jan 2011 showed a tendency towards OCD, though Cptsd is really my issue.

 

[ukxmrv]

I'm XMRV+ and recurrent strep throats all though my time with this disease. It was swabbed many times and the Step was only found a few times. Usually nothing. Strep is supposed to be commonly found and asymptomatic in some people. I also get thrush in my mouth as well (but not very often).

Gargling and brushing with tea-tree products has brought down the throat problems a lot. If I feel a sore throat coming on I also gargle with water/sea salt. Zinc lozenges are not helpful to me.

No OCD or any in my family. Lots of us get the throats though.