(Spiritual Healing discussion - post title changed because it targeted a member)

[cameron]

In January when freerisoner arrived on this site she was unaware of the reasons why Simon Wessely was disliked by so many of the ME community. But then she had only had ME for three months. It was a self diagnosis. However she also suffered from ME in 2004 for an undisclosed amount of time. A seemingly short amount of time. A few weeks ago she got entangled in a heated debate on an advocacy thread were she came across as condescending to many members.

Around that time she was asked about her illness in the chat room and her symptoms along with the longevity. Remarkably she made an immediate exit from the chat room excusing herself in an instant.

She was then uncharacteristically absent from this site after usually appearing everyday.

So now we are told that she has been on the receiving end of not one but two "miracles". Even by religious standards this is truly amazing. The first miracle was having a torn cartilage mended by being prayed over. And the second was being "healed" of ME by means of a similar event.

Maybe miracles do happen. But twice to the same person? That is more than any religious panel I an aware of have ever voted on as "miraculous".

Self diagnosed ME after two months, and a self proclaimed miracle cure, some two months later. WOW.

I do not have a problem with religion or prayer or "miracles". But those of you who are religious, really ask yourself about the validity of these claims.

This truly must be the most lucky person alive because her friend was "helped" by the lightening process. So to the people who are wary of the psyches picking up on this issue as an illness belief well done for such necessary observation. And to those of you with a religious denomination ask yourself whether your religion has benefited or been abused by such claims.

 

[Jody]

Hi Cameron,

I don't have a problem with anything thefreeprisoner has said on the forums.

She is not the first person I know of who has said they have received some type of healing that they attribute to prayer. Nor is she the first person I know of who has believed that they had been healed on more than one occasion.

Truth be told, I am one of those people myself. Go figger.:Retro smile:

Mind you, I still have CFS. But I have had tendinitis disappear on more than one occasion, and greatly diminish on others, without medication. Just talking to God about it. My husband who had suffered migraines for 20 yrs, without any relief from all medications he'd tried, stopped having migraines after spending extended time in prayer. The last migraine was 16 yrs ago.

The whole subject of healing is a hairy business. It raises a multitude of questions that are by their nature pretty much unanswerable.

I don't know why this one gets better and that one doesn't. I don't know why I've had symptoms and ailments disappear at times and not other times. And I don't know why I still am sick. But whether I understand or not doesn't change the fact that, ... sometimes I've recovered and there was no good known reason for it.

I can understand why this can all sound pretty strange to you and to other people. I can understand if you just plain don't believe it. I personally am usually quite skeptical of anything like this that I hear second hand. I pretty much just trust my own experience and that's about it.

But the thing is, thefreeprisoner is free to speak of these matters here, just as the rest of us are free to voice our thoughts and opinions. We on the moderating / administration team take this freedom very seriously, for her and for all our members.

 

[rebecca1995]

Rachel is a member of our community who has made a number of valuable contributions, such as providing emotional support and transcribing lectures.

I feel that it's inappropriate to insinuate that someone doesn't have genuine ME/CFS just because his or her illness falls at the moderate or mild end of the spectrum. People from all walks of ME/CFS belong to this forum; we range from the totally bedbound to those in remission.

While I don't believe in faith healing myself, I feel that members should have the right to post about the results of all treatments--both positive and negative.

I also feel, as has been discussed elswhere, that we should have the option of posting in a more private way, whether it's in the Community Lounge or a new section.

Moderators: Consider combining this thread with the thread originally started by Rachel. There's no reason why a member should be singled out like this, with her user name in the thread's title, as though she had nefarious intentions in sharing what happened to her. The tone of Cameron's post is sarcastic and disrespectful.

 

[cameron]

Rebecca

please dont be fooled. This is not about members rights. Please look at the bigger picture.

 

[julius]

Well, dude. You got my vote for worst thread of the year.

And maybe a new record for getting kicked off the forum with your first post....we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[kurt]

I believe Cameron has a right to question something that looks suspicious to him. As long as he is not writing insults I think there is no harm in questioning, that is is part of the learning process here. But also we all have the right to defend our views and our statements here. So rather than turn this into a shouting match, maybe thefreeprisoner should simply respond and state for the record her motives and intentions and whether or not she has some secondary purpose for sharing her story.

The truth Cameron is that all we have to go by for anyone here is what they say and write. Nobody really knows who anyone else is, although I personally have corresponded with some people on this forum for many years, including on other forums. People here build their reputation by the credibility of their statements over time. thefreeprisoner has quickly built up significant credibility and has donated time to help moderate (which is a pretty thankless task), here so people are not likely to side with you on this. Just stating the facts, nothing personal.

While there really are a few people who appear 'out to get us' that is a small list of loonies who will eventually get what they deserve (anyway if there really is justice in this universe that will happen). I seriously doubt thefreeprisoner is 'pulling our leg' on this, as I also have seen unexplainable sudden healings after prayer and various spiritual interventions, for conditions as serious as cancer. In fact CFS is one of the few conditions where one rarely hears of faith healings so any story like hers is of particular interest.

Also, note that research shows that people who have had CFS for only a short time are more likely to experience remissions and recovery.

What I find most fascinating in thefreeprisoner's story is the location of the apparent healing, she felt heat in the brain and brainstem (if I remember correctly anyway). How fascinating, that is consistent with some of the abnormal brainscan findings.

 

[cameron]

Well if thefreeprisoner has made this wonderful recovery where she can run up flights of stairs and is more or less back to normal apart from a bit of deconditioning at least she will be able to get back to running her media company.

She can also write her blogs explaining how this second miracle happened. What a turn around and what a great story. I am truly pleased for you thefreeprisoner.

This reminds me of so many other more publicised stories of people who have had a turnaround in their ME. Esther Ransons daughter recovered on the Lightening process in three days.

What an amazing story this could make. Just think of how the press could report it.

Kurt it is certainly true that she has posted some 400 times in her two month membership. She also runs a small media company with 4 staff and she is a moderator as you have stated. The blog that she refers to in the first post of this thread, where was it originally posted. Was it posted here originally and if not, why not. I would really love to see where else it was posted and who is likely to be reading it. Who was it aimed at?

Regardless of the miracle issue and the extent of her ME should we not question the impact on the ME community from poorly observed ouside perspectives of this blog.

 

[Martlet]

I've met many people over the years who swore they felt better after whatever religious thing was done. Within a few weeks, all symptoms were always back

You may not have met anyone but I am an example. I was amongst the sickest... almost totally wheelchair/bed/sofa-bound for four years. I weighed about 85lbs, needed to wear a neck collar for support, and wrist braces at times. Healed in an instant through being prayed with. Some months later, was hiking in the Peak District on a trip back to England. Even climbed Mam Tor. The following year and subsequent years, I led pilgrimage groups to the Holy Land, worked in a very busy ministry, painted my house twice inside and once outside, then during the presidential election worked for two years on the Obama campaign, putting in a ten-hour day and on election day itself, opened the campaign office at 4.30 am, ran the GOTV effort and got to bed at two next morning, still hyper. I have walked the length and breadth or Brussels, hiked in the Taunus and here I am, 16 years later, with a minor dip after a flu shot followed by a colonoscopy followed by a trip to Florida where I caught a bad stomach bug, followed by an H1N1 shot. My immune system up-regulated for a few weeks, but that has all resolved now and all I am left with is a shoulder impingement due to painting several ceilings last Fall. I'd say that healing "took".

 

[cameron]

CBT and GET can help and possibly even induce full recovery in people who do not have a physical disease. Namely emotional issues can be helped with these treatments. This would then improve functioning and physical performance. CBT could also help someone who has a belief let go of that belief and move forward. This would not cure ME.

So if we have treatments such as "religious healing" could the same be said to be true. They can help with emotional issues and improve functioning. They could even give an individual a way out of a certain questionable belief. This is not the same as any of these treatments curing a physical disease.

Proclamations of miracles should not be only judged on the "cure" but should be firstly judged on the actual illness. It also has to be possible to know extensively about the original illness and witness it. This would also be true of a scientific experiment. Why would we readily accept a "miracle" when we haven't witnessed it start to finish, yet we will not except scientific studies until we have absolutely pulled them apart.

Also why is it perfectly OK to question the motives of a scientific study but not of a proclaimed religious healing. Illogical if you ask me.

 

[Andrew]

Regardless of the miracle issue and the extent of her ME should we not question the impact on the ME community from poorly observed outside perspectives of this blog.

Nobody seems to mind hearing about cancer being cured by faith. But, then again, cancer patients are not subjected to the kind of disbelief that we are. But despite this, I think it's a mistake to start policing pwc who report improvement by politically incorrect methods.

FWIW, I went to three different places that offered prayer healing. It didn't seem to make a dent on my cancer or CFS. But I'm happy to hear about anyone who gets better. And I don't care if they used an anti-viral, B12, Mickel therapy, or prayer.

 

[cameron]

Andrew

there are two distinct groups who fall under the CFS blanket. (I'm using CFS to mean something different from ME) Those with a physical disease and those without a physical disease. That is regardless of a diagnostic test and being able to prove it. The fact is, I believe, that in our heart of hearts we all know where we fall under the CFS blanket. Therefore it would make more sense to believe that those claiming cures form mikel therapy or prayer are more likely to have not had a physical disease in the first place.

Of course there is also the issues of remission and severity.

 

[Andrew]

Therefore it would make more sense to believe that those claiming cures form mikel therapy or prayer are more likely to have not had a physical disease in the first place.

I tried Mickel therapy and I still have CFS. IOW, it didn't work for me. But I can see how it might work with someone else. Mickel therapy includes is journaling and tracking which situations bring on stress. So, using the XMRV model, reduction of stress along with pacing will reduce the stress hormone that Mikovits says can activate XMRV. This could tip the scale enough for the immune system to get the upper hand in suppressing the virus. Well, at least suppress it until hormones set it off again. So the stress hormone activation of XMRV concept is believable to me. But I've also heard and read comments from doctors that if stress reduction works, then CFS is all in your head.

Anyway, I don't deny that prayer healing sounds more far-fetched than stress reduction. I'm just not ready to exclude people as having a physical illness unless the remedy is something that is swallowed or injected.

 

[Min]

I'm glad someone has questioned this person's supposed 'miracles' and very, very worried that evangelists with fundamentalist religious beliefs are taking over this board.

(Esther Rantzen's daughter was 'healed' twice, both times by commercially sold methods that she appeared to be promoting.)

 

[cameron]

I have no issue with religious belief or belief in miracles, I am not religious myself. However, its seems strange that we should be just expected to accept these two latest miracles upon the same person without questioning them.

If the church situation had been replaced with Mickel therapy or a Lightening Therapy claim it would have been viewed with nothing but scepticism from nearly everyone on this forum. Yet here, whether we are religious or not, are being asked by many responders to just accept it in blind faith. Well I'm not going to. I also don't accept that just because someone is religious they should just accept it in blind faith either. Neither should we accept these claims on the grounds of political correctness. These claims should have to stand up on their own feet - from start to finish and the actual CFS patient criteria should be questioned just like we would do with Wesseley or a CBT promoter. We have talked at length about Oxford, Fukada and Canadian criteria on all the other threads and their impact on evaluations. Why are we not doing this here?

We don't accept the LP, Mickel Therapy, GET, CBT, somatization, the IC study, the Kerr study, XMRV etc etc in blind faith. In Fact most of us spend hours reading about them and evaluating them to conclude in all but XMRV that they are nothing but psych babble or spin. We are also suspicious of the patient groups and their motives and we discuss them openly here. We should be questioning whether the person in question has received an emotional or spiritual boost rather than a cure of a physical disease.

What would we do if Wessely or the LP claimed their treatments had a religious background tomorrow.

The exact same scrutiny should be applied to all alternative and religious treatments particularly when they claim to have brought about instantaneous cure.

 

[Katie]

Moderator note:

This thread is, for the time being, locked for the following rule infractions.

1. Attacking someone's motivation for a post
2. Attacking someone's character
3. Questioning whether someone is ‘a mole’.
4. Questioning someone's medical status.


I have split this thread so that the neutral discussion on faith healing can continue as that has broken no rules and it would be unfair to shut it down. It now looks as if Carrigon started the topic but that was the first post I took.

The moderating team are currently discussion the status of this thread and appreciate your patience while this takes place.

 

[Martlet]

I have no issue with religious belief or belief in miracles, I am not religious myself. However, its seems strange that we should be just expected to accept these two latest miracles upon the same person without questioning them.

Moderator note: Flex, you have committed three violations in this thread.

1. Posting under two user names.
2. Discussing a forum member rather than the issues
3. Questioning the validity/severity of another member's illness.