Some CFS patients just have Iron Deficiency Without Anemia, an internist found

[Judee]

How common are these low blood iron issues in ME/CFS patients and could they be contributing to our symptoms?

I don't know but I have a sense we all might have something going on with iron because of a pathogen load.

Any idea what this likely pathogen could be? Is this a virus?

Oh, I'm sorry @xploit316, I thought I answered you on this but now I remember I started to research it and got lost down the rabbit hole.

Years ago, I had read that only some bacteria and cancers feed on iron but not viruses.

However, when you posted that question to me, I then started to search for "iron and viruses" and started to see some mention that talked about the covid and iron. That's when I got mentally lost because I couldn't figure out how/why they were saying covid was using the iron.

Anyway, at that point, my brain started to seek the path of least resistance and I moved onto something else probably intending to come back and answer you.

Unfortunately, the brain forecast today is still foggy. I'm putting this on watch though and if I do get a clearer moment maybe I can come back to this topic again. Hopefully.

 

[Alvin2]

I don't know but I have a sense we all might have something going on with iron because of a pathogen load.



Oh, I'm sorry @xploit316, I thought I answered you on this but now I remember I started to research it and got lost down the rabbit hole.

Years ago, I had read that only some bacteria and cancers feed on iron but not viruses.

However, when you posted that question to me, I then started to search for "iron and viruses" and started to see some mention that talked about the covid and iron. That's when I got mentally lost because I couldn't figure out how/why they were saying covid was using the iron.

Anyway, at that point, my brain started to seek the path of least resistance and I moved onto something else probably intending to come back and answer you.

Unfortunately, the brain forecast today is still foggy. I'm putting this on watch though and if I do get a clearer moment maybe I can come back to this topic again. Hopefully.

Here is the Wikipedia article on it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemia_of_chronic_disease

I did some research when i was able and it might be caused by elevated IL6, there was a PR post that had options for lowering it, PQQ was one of them that i am going to try when i can get my hands on it.

 

[tyson oberle]

If you want to know if low iron is responsible for your symptoms, you need to raise your ferritin up to 100 ng/ml and your Transferrin Saturation above 20%.

But if your iron levels are low, it may be that you have some problem with non heme iron absorption and supplementation won't be that easy.

IV iron have shown to produce inflammation, and ferrous sulfate may increase pathogenic gut bacteria.

My own experience with iron supplementation to raise ferritin over 2.5 months showed me what works for me, this is my daily iron cocktail:

-iron bisglycinate
-lactoferrin
-red meat

Do you think iron bisglycinate would be better than a heme iron supplement? And if so, why?

 

[pattismith]

Do you think iron bisglycinate would be better than a heme iron supplement? And if so, why?

what heme iron supplement do you think about?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

any suggestions welcome for how to increase these values!!

Floradex......liquid iron supplement works to get iron into the body....

 

[Alvin2]

A friend suggested a Hematologist, i am going to look into that.

 

[tyson oberle]

what heme iron supplement do you think about?

Shant1 in a previous post in this thread mentioned Proferrin which an "oral iron supplement made from naturally sourced heme iron polypeptide (HIP), which is iron derived from bovine hemoglobin. Proferrin has these advantages compared to other non-heme iron supplements."
I already bought some iron bisglycinate and lactoferrin, but I am wondering if Proferrin or another heme iron supplement would be better

 

[pattismith]

Shant1 in a previous post in this thread mentioned Proferrin which an "oral iron supplement made from naturally sourced heme iron polypeptide (HIP), which is iron derived from bovine hemoglobin. Proferrin has these advantages compared to other non-heme iron supplements."
I already bought some iron bisglycinate and lactoferrin, but I am wondering if Proferrin or another heme iron supplement would be better

if you can't eat red meat, it may be useful, because "Heme iron absorption is relatively independent of the effects of various promoters/inhibitors of iron absorption in the food matrix (except for calcium, see below)"

"Heme iron, which is ferrous iron present in haemoglobin in the red blood cells and myoglobin in the myocytes, is absorbed within the intact protoporphyrin molecule threefold to fourfold more efficiently than inorganic ferric iron."


Here factors promoting or inhibiting non heme iron absorption:

Hepcidin is the ultimate limiting factor for iron absorption, both heme or non heme

A Review of Nutrients and Compounds, Which Promote or Inhibit Intestinal Iron Absorption: Making a Platform for Dietary Measures That Can Reduce Iron Uptake in Patients with Genetic Haemochromatosis (hindawi.com)

 

[pattismith]

I don't know but I have a sense we all might have something going on with iron because of a pathogen load.

Maybe it's pathogens, or maybe it's alpha1 adrenergic overactivation (some of us have high level of autoantibodies activating these receptors)

The α1-adrenergic receptor is involved in hepcidin upregulation induced by adrenaline and norepinephrine via the STAT3 pathway - PubMed (nih.gov)

Taken together, we found that ADrenaline or Noradrenaline increase hepatic hepcidin expression via the α1-adrenergic receptor and STAT3 pathways in mice.

And when hepcidin raise, iron absorption is reduced...

 

[pattismith]

This article may be an explanation to why so many people suffer with low iron...

Low iron mitigates viral survival: insights from evolution, genetics, and pandemics—a review of current hypothesis - PMC (nih.gov)

The insight provided by evolutionary and genetic perspectives, points towards an iron deficiency phenotype that has prevailed throughout generations, providing protection against acute infection

. By referring to previous pandemics, a connection can be seen in the general inability of some viruses to invade deeply into high prevalence Iron Deficiency Anemia territories.
Human biology seems to have also evolved with this goal in mind, along with cultural and sociological patterns that have upheld the iron deficient phenotype.

Humans may have adapted ways to favor iron loss, while pathogens have adapted methods to effectively acquire iron from their hosts.

 

[pattismith]

Doctors are trained to think inflammation = high ferritine in blood.

They are not trained to think inflammation = low ferritine, although it's a fact that is now admitted and the mechanism has been studied.

Iron intestinal absorption is under the control of Hepcidin, and the more Hepcidin raises, the less iron is absorbed, leading to low ferritine in blood.

Hepcidin and infections are directely connected via the Toll Like Receptors TLR4 (extracellular) TLR7 and TLR8 (intracellular). The stimulation of these receptors by bacterias and viruses produces Hepcidin rise and low ferritine in blood.

Role of the hepcidin-ferroportin axis in pathogen-mediated intracellular iron sequestration in human phagocytic cells​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5965048/

 

[pattismith]

Now a new study was released in 2023 showing that the same direct link between TLR and Hepcidin in phagocytic cells also exists in hepatocyts, independently of cytokines


" In conclusion, our data show that hepatocytes can directly recognize PAMPs and pathogens and in this way promote hepcidin upregulation in a macrophage and cytokine independent manner."

https://journals.lww.com/hemasphere...cyte_toll_like_receptors_mediate_the.186.aspx