Sodium salicylate inhibits mast cell degranulation

[Violeta]

@Sherlock, It's funny, I knew when I was taking niacin last month that it causes mast cell degranulation, and I was doing it to release histamines and avoid histamine build up, but all of a sudden it had a new meaning. After a while I realized it was making my sore throat so much worse and quit taking it. I realize calcium is part of the cause of mast cell degranulation, and then there's usually something else involved, so I have to find out what else is involved when taking niacin. Strange. I'll google that with the PGD2 that you mention.

 

[Sherlock]

@Sherlock, It's funny, I knew when I was taking niacin last month that it causes mast cell degranulation, and I was doing it to release histamines and avoid histamine build up, but all of a sudden it had a new meaning. After a while I realized it was making my sore throat so much worse and quit taking it. I realize calcium is part of the cause of mast cell degranulation, and then there's usually something else involved, so I have to find out what else is involved when taking niacin. Strange. I'll google that with the PGD2 that you mention.

Maybe the throat effect was from leukotrienes. Have you tried using a boswellia to inhibit leukotriene synthesis, then take niacin afterward to try and deplete histamine?

Btw, I did try boswellia (apart from niacin) to see if that increased my breathing capacity, but it did nothing. Maybe I'll sometime double up the dose and try it again .

 

[Lou]

I could be wrong but I think lemon juice and baking soda is having a positive effect on excess lactic acid. Twice now, I was having a 'burn' from overuse of particular muscle and our concoction stopped the burn. Completely.

Could that be a game changer for many here?

 

[Sherlock]

I could be wrong but I think lemon juice and baking soda is having a positive effect on excess lactic acid. Twice now, I was having a 'burn' from overuse of particular muscle and our concoction stopped the burn. Completely.

Could that be a game changer for many here?

Hi, Lou. My impression is that sodium salicylate is mainly useful if a person has an allergy to aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) - you still get the salicylate.

But you might try just baking soda PWO, or even Pre WorkOut, since that is what might be helping you. However, if you take too much there is a very strong laxative effect. It's interesting that you've had such a rapid benefit.

Researcher Paul Light has a paper somewhere about how CFS and Fibro can lead to more acid levels of various kinds in muscle after workout. I can post his graph if you'd like.

 

[Lou]

Hi, Lou. My impression is that sodium salicylate is mainly useful if a person has an allergy to aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) - you still get the salicylate.

But you might try just baking soda PWO, or even Pre WorkOut, since that is what might be helping you. However, if you take too much there is a very strong laxative effect. It's interesting that you've had such a rapid benefit.

Researcher Paul Light has a paper somewhere about how CFS and Fibro can lead to more acid levels of various kinds in muscle after workout. I can post his graph if you'd like.

Thanks, Sherlock

Sorry, what is PWO?

So, aspirin alone will inhibit mast cell degranulation? Degranulation is a distinct, if separate from excess lactic acid, problem for me as well.

Also, if you'd give your opinion on this: would you worry much about the aluminum in baking soda. I think it may even help with brain fog, but I don't won't to invite Alziemer's in the process.

 

[Sherlock]

Thanks, Sherlock

Sorry, what is PWO?

So, aspirin alone will inhibit mast cell degranulation? Degranulation is a distinct, if separate from excess lactic acid, problem for me as well.

Also, if you'd give your opinion on this: would you worry much about the aluminum in baking soda. I think it may even help with brain fog, but I don't won't to invite Alziemer's in the process.

Lou, PWO = post workout

Aspirin is prescribed by docs to lessen flush from prescription niacin given to heart patients. That works by inhibiting production of prostaglandin D2 in mast cells. Violetta's citation talked also about it inhibiting degranulation. Maybe almost any anti-iflammatory does likewise.

Degranulation is not completely understood.

Aluminum? No, that was mostly a false alarm from Bob's Red Mill. (I had even phoned them back when.) But I would not take baking powder, which does have a lot a aluminum.

 

[Lou]

Lou, PWO = post workout


Aluminum? No, that was mostly a false alarm from Bob's Red Mill. (I had even phoned them back when.) But I would not take baking powder, which does have a lot a aluminum.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've confused the issue again. It is not a potato starch source of aluminum(didn't actually know it had any) that concerns me, but rather baking soda, which indeed contains aluminum. It is the baking soda, not baking powder, that I'm currently taking.

If it seemed to help brain fog and lactic acid buildup would you personally worry about a half teaspoon of baking soda daily? I'm sure you've heard of the link between aluminum and Alzheimer's disease.

I'd really appreciate any opinions out there regarding this. Thanks.

 

[Sherlock]

@Lou, for an idea of why I think that researching can lead in circles, take a look at Table 1 here:
http://www.biotrend-usa.com/archive/file/content/biotrend-reviews/BTReview_Jan2010_Mastcell.pdf

It lists the receptors that can trigger mast cell activation (either sudden degranulation, which can be only of certain pre-made/stored products that mast cells make, like histamine -- or else just secreting other products that are made as needed, like PGD2).

The ligands are what activate the receptors. They include the histamine, serotonin and leukotrienes that MCs make. So MCs can be set off by other MCs. the same goes for some proteases (enzymes that break down proteins, such as in joints -- that is what is bedeviling me lately).

All of those starting with Fc are activated by antibodies.

All those starting with TLR are triggered by things like bacteria (the coating called LPS that Violetta was talking about) and so on.

Then look at all the remaining ones. Adrenalin from stress, e.g.

Then some work the other way and inhibit of mast cell activity.

Chemokines are chemical that can attract cell slike MCs to an aream to take up temporary or remanent residence. MC can live for many months.

Eosinophils are others immune cells that can degranulate.

Substance P makes pain.

On and on

 

[Sherlock]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've confused the issue again. It is not a potato starch source of aluminum(didn't actually know it had any) that concerns me, but rather baking soda, which indeed contains aluminum. It is the baking soda, not baking powder, that I'm currently taking.

If it seemed to help brain fog and lactic acid buildup would you personally worry about a half teaspoon of baking soda daily? I'm sure you've heard of the link between aluminum and Alzheimer's disease.

I'd really appreciate any opinions out there regarding this. Thanks.

Sorry, I should have been more clear that baking soda contains only a little of aluminum. Bob's Red Mill created a false stir that brands other than their own contain a lot, but that is untrue. MD/researcher Neil Barnard also does presentations on Alzheimer's too, and I believe he is only concerned about the baking powder, not baking soda. He also suggest avoiding aluminum cookware, saying that we don't know for sure, but it's an easy thing to give up and use other frypans.

Also as regards anti-Alzherimers approaches, he suggests that copper pipes are possibly bad, because of leeching into water leading to excess amounts consumed. Then again, you can find researchers suggesting that copper deficiency leads to artery disease. It goes round and round.

I would not personally worry about about 1/2 tsp of baking soda per day, or double that.

 

[Sherlock]

Here's one on niacin flushing, which expands this even more:

Acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) can reduce this flush, presumably by decreasing prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) release from macrophages. Here, we show that methylnicotinate induces significant PGD2 release from human mast cells and serotonin from human platelets.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665.full

And now, since my right wrist is in bad shape today (probably from MCs) and I've been resultingly typing like a baboon, I think I will log off and rest it.

 

[Violeta]

@Lou, aspirin by itself causes mast cell degranulation. When mixed with baking soda it inhibits mast cell degranulation. Are you able to get Bob's Red Mill baking soda? iherb carries it. No aluminum. You are just mixing the baking soda with lemon, though, right? I don't know how much salicylic acid is in a lemon, but that's great that the combination is working for you.

 

[Lou]

@MeSci


Thanks, Violeta, I'll order some Bob's Red Mill baking soda. Have tried it with aspirin but switched to lemon juice.

Now, with re to sodium salicylate helping with lactic acid I should tell myself, 'hold it right there, cowboy(as in shooting from the hip again) because it may not have been the whole story, or even involved at all. It didn't seem to work yesterday and got to thinking of another supplement I'd been taking around same time that gave relief from the muscle burn. A brown seaweed extract, cystoseira canariensis, that may inhibit serum myostatin protein. It seems this protein puts the brakes on muscle growth.

I just don't know, it could be the sodium salicylate was a red herring here and I don't wish to lead someone who may be following all this down wrong path. I wish @MeSci would weigh in here, think she's had good results from baking soda use.

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

Hi there, not sure this is the best place for this question, but I took alka seltzer gold (just trying to keep myself alkaline in general, I was planning on doing this regularly for awhile, but only tried it this once so far) a few hours after eating- did not have any stomach pain before taking, but got a lot of stomach pain/bloating after having taken it.

I was wondering if anyone has any clue why I may have had that reaction? I want to be sure I understand what happened.

My only thought is even though it was a few hrs after eating, I may have still been digesting a bit (I take forever). But beyond that I have no idea... Totally confused with the alternating of Hcl and baking soda products.

 

[MeSci]

I could be wrong but I think lemon juice and baking soda is having a positive effect on excess lactic acid. Twice now, I was having a 'burn' from overuse of particular muscle and our concoction stopped the burn. Completely.

Could that be a game changer for many here?

I've been taking sodium bicarbonate without the lemon juice for about 2 years. I started because I assumed that I had acidosis, and for whatever reason it has helped to improve my symptoms along with dietary change and other supplements (see my profile info section).

I know it's the sod bic as I have tried reducing/stopping it twice and symptoms have worsened, improving again when I restarted it.

 

[MeSci]

Sorry, I should have been more clear that baking soda contains only a little of aluminum.

I would not personally worry about about 1/2 tsp of baking soda per day, or double that.

I am fairly sure that no sodium bicarbonate sold for consumption in the UK contains aluminium. The one I buy in Boots pharmacy is 100% sodium bicarbonate.

I take 2 teaspoonfuls a day with no ill effects - quite the contrary!

 

[MeSci]

Totally confused with the alternating of Hcl and baking soda products.

AFAIK the people who take HCl have - or believe they have - low stomach acid (hypochlorhydria).

I believe that I have plenty of stomach acid, and as a vegan I probably don't need as much as omnivores. I believe that I have acidosis, so take sodium bicarbonate. It certainly helps with some things!

 

[MeSci]

This study shows that sodium salicylate inhibits mast cell degranulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2326792/

However, there are a lot of people with mast cell activation syndrome that report that salicylates cause histamine issues. I can't figure out why sodium salicylate has the opposite effect.

Anyone have an idea why that would be?

Post moved to mast cell forum.

Study is on rat cells in vitro. May have no implications for humans in vivo.

Certainly not relevant enough for me to act on - or even read!

 

[Gondwanaland]

If you want to inhibit MCs, then I'd look at quercetin. Here's an example: aspirin has the reputation of only partially abolishing the niacin flush. Quercetin does it almost completely. It's an experiment you can easily try.

Quercetin is high in salicylates... I've learned it the hard way...
Will try the lemon + bicarb soon, fearing a kickback from the lemon (I don't tolerate vitamin C)...
Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion!

 

[MeSci]

Quercetin is high in salicylates... I've learned it the hard way...
Will try the lemon + bicarb soon, fearing a kickback from the lemon (I don't tolerate vitamin C)...
Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion!

Wonder if you could use vinegar instead of lemon juice, if the idea is to use acid+alkali?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Wonder if you could use vinegar instead of lemon juice, if the idea is to use acid+alkali?

Thanks for the suggestion. Perhaps white vinegar? I am currently intolerant to fermented stuff.