SIBO treatment phasing

[caledonia]

Thanks @caledonia. The raw data revealed I'm CC so looks like my genes 'learnt' from my mums problems and gave me a good SNP..

I am nonetheless pumping in Lecithin along with my Betaine HCL / Gentian Bitters mix (excellent product from NOW) to ensure SIBO eradication.

BTW I've been doing Coffee Enema's for the first time in almost 6 months as a means to further assist this purgative process (along with the Siebecker herbal antibiotic regime) and just today started taking NAC (popped 2 x 600mg tablets this morning) and took them with my herbal antibiotics. Apparently they're very useful for killing certain fungi associated with SIBO per here: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/NAC.html which I'm almost certainly high in noting the high arabinose (yeast toxicity), and 4-hydroxyphenylacetic (clostridia bacterial marker) revealed by last years OAT results.

My concern is that of taking NAC whilst doing coffee enemas AND taking ALA as part of my methylation supps, taking into account this old thread which caught the interest of the late richvank: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/n-acetyl-cysteine.11967/

My concern (and tell me if its valid) is that the coffee enemas will displace toxic metals from my liver into the body which the NAC and ALA may then facilitate to cross the BBB which is absolutely the last think I'd want as we all know both the effects, and hard hard it is to chelate heavy metals from the brain once in there... So please, let me know your thoughts. I'm sitting here hoping to make use of my last day at home by doing a coffee enema, but would happily avoid it if it runs the aforementioned risk..

If the above risk is real then how long would it be advisable to wait before doing another Coffee Enema. I presume theres no risk in taking the methylation supps (including ALA) so long as I'm not displacing the metals with the coffee enema. Again if this too is not without risk I'd appreciate your input.

Similarly, how long should one wait between taking NAC and ALA to ensure limited risk of having toxic metals go the wrong way at the BBB interface..


Regards

Journeyman

According to Andy Cutler (and both common sense wise and from hard experience I think he is right) if you don't take chelators (like ALA) on their half life, the metals will redistribute and not come out. The redistribution will make you worse.

That's why I have a warning in red at the top of my blog page (linked in my signature link) NOT to take the ALA recommended on Freddd's protocol (unless you're doing Cutler's protocol).

The issue (according to Cutler) with NAC can be problems tolerating the thiols. If that's the case, you can do glutamine and glycine which are precursors to NAC. Then NAC is a precursor to glutathione.

I think coffee enemas are supposed to increase glutathione somehow. I'm not sure of the mechanism off hand. Cutler didn't recommend them, I think because of the yuck factor, but some people really like them and get benefit from them.

Another option is vitamin C which is a co-factor for glutathione recycling. That works for me - I can tell that my chemical sensitivities are a lot better when I take vitamin C.

Hmmmm, I just read the article you linked to and it sounds like large amounts of NAC could cause redistribution too.

So it sounds like you've been tolerating coffee enemas, so that sounds ok. I wouldn't suggest taking ALA. It sounds like if you do want to take NAC to keep the dose low. If you're feeling worse, of course, discontinue, and maybe try glutamine and glycine instead.

I read the other article on NAC and bacteria. It sounds like the benefit is actually coming from the production of glutathione.

So you have several options to make glutathione.

I think I would do them on different days and maybe wait a few days in between just to be on the safe side. Then it's easier to tell what is doing what. Keep good notes on how you feel afterwards - it can really help sort things out as to what you tolerate and what's helping or not. You probably won't remember if you don't write it down.

Then if you want to combine some of them, start with low doses and gradually work up to larger doses as tolerated.

 

[Journeyman]

Are you taking one capsule of Betaine HCl a meal? If so, have you considered taking more?

For bile acids, some members seem to have good results with Jarrow's Bile Acid Factors, which has considerably more bile acids than what you are taking.

Thanks a heap Eastman. You've made me realise that its one thing to take the right supplement but its equally important to have some understanding as to what a physiological dose is rather than just whats recommended on the container (which is often motivated by numerous other factors such as harm avoidance for a small minority of the population rather than curing the ailment the product is actually intended for)

I'm so glad you've brought this Jarrow product to my attention. I'm about to put an order in for it now and keenly look forward to noting what changes it might bring noting its relatively stronger potency than this: https://au.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Super-Enzymes-180-Tablets/856

Regards

Journeyman

 

[Journeyman]

According to Andy Cutler (and both common sense wise and from hard experience I think he is right) if you don't take chelators (like ALA) on their half life, the metals will redistribute and not come out. The redistribution will make you worse.

That's why I have a warning in red at the top of my blog page (linked in my signature link) NOT to take the ALA recommended on Freddd's protocol (unless you're doing Cutler's protocol).

I'm glad I showed some restraint and avoided both the coffee enema and methylation supps yesterday. You confirmed what I suspected: ALA would chelate any toxic metals and having active NAC at the same time would then allow those displaced metals to potentially cross the blood brain barrier (BBB). I hope this is something heeded by many other unsuspecting folk out there who might not have done sufficient research on the potential interaction effects of these two useful (but risky) supplements.

The issue (according to Cutler) with NAC can be problems tolerating the thiols. If that's the case, you can do glutamine and glycine which are precursors to NAC. Then NAC is a precursor to glutathione.

IIRC having intolerance to thiols means that you tend to experience symptoms after eating foods rich in thiols like garlic, onions?I don't have any ammonia or CBS issues per my avatar summation of my SNP's (Genetic Genie output) so this might explain why I'm ok with them (apart from SIBO issues that is)?

Another option is vitamin C which is a co-factor for glutathione recycling. That works for me - I can tell that my chemical sensitivities are a lot better when I take vitamin C.

You've touched on an important issue here. After all what use is being able to make Glutathione if its not hanging around to cause lasting healing AND (based on that beautiful NAC article by Wheldon) prevent the colonisation of the colon by yeasts which probably explains SIBO relapse in many patients following antibiotic treatment. Sometimes you come across some useful pieces of info from the least expected sources/links. One in question is here
which I take to mean that Nicotinic acid/Niacin acts to recycle existing glutathione? (Assuming NADH+ that she refers to is created by Nicotinic acid) ??

So it sounds like you've been tolerating coffee enemas, so that sounds ok. I wouldn't suggest taking ALA. It sounds like if you do want to take NAC to keep the dose low. If you're feeling worse, of course, discontinue, and maybe try glutamine and glycine instead.

I'm going to take the cautious route and leave ALA out until I've finished the herbal antibiotics taken with NAC (2.4gm/day) I appreciate your insightful suggestion re: glutamine/glycine as an alternative to NAC.. I'll bear this in mind and look up where I might get more glycine from (Rice iirc?)

I read the other article on NAC and bacteria. It sounds like the benefit is actually coming from the production of glutathione.

Apparently the main function of NAC is that it breaks down the integrity of the gram negative bacteria's cell's. That is, it breaks open the cells of at least a few, if not many of the bacteria responsible for SIBO.. I think this quote sums it up best:
"From the yeast's point of view the production of gliotoxin may be fundamental to the establishment of chronic colonization; locally high levels are found, for instance, in the genital tract of women with severe vaginal candidiasis [Shah DT, Glover DD, Larsen B. In situ mycotoxin production by Candida albicans in women with vaginitis. Gynecol Obstet Invest. 1995; 39(1): 67-9.] Gliotoxin is a potent neurotoxin, and may alter gut motility.

I think I would do them on different days and maybe wait a few days in between just to be on the safe side. Then it's easier to tell what is doing what. Keep good notes on how you feel afterwards - it can really help sort things out as to what you tolerate and what's helping or not. You probably won't remember if you don't write it down.Then if you want to combine some of them, start with low doses and gradually work up to larger doses as tolerated.

I think thats an important point you make regarding keeping notes. So hard to do when you're bombarding your mind with all the information available in this forum and outside sources. Not to mention the fact I'm doing so in competition with gliotoxins (from the SIBO) that are probably impairing my ability to learn and remember these same hard won facts.

Based on the detox SNP's that you can see summarised in my avatar (left of this msg?) would I be correct in saying I've got quite a bad detox setup and a fairly average collection of methylation SNP's? I say this because I'm completely absent GSTT1? which I seem to recall as being an important SNP for Glutathione production.

Thanks for your insights @caledonia I think the clarity of your advice is a testament to the beneficial effects you've achieved with the Cutler protocol and no doubt many other self improvement strategies over a long period of time..

Regards

Journeyman

 

[caledonia]

IIRC having intolerance to thiols means that you tend to experience symptoms after eating foods rich in thiols like garlic, onions?I don't have any ammonia or CBS issues per my avatar summation of my SNP's (Genetic Genie output) so this might explain why I'm ok with them (apart from SIBO issues that is)?

I actually did ok with garlic, onions, etc. My issue was not tolerating B12 and folate supplements. If you look on the Heartfixer page, that is one of the symptoms. So I did the Heartfixer CBS protocol using Cutler's Free Thiol Food List for guidance on food vs. cutting out most protein which is much more difficult. I tested with the urine sulfate strips - I had to do the protocol for 3 months. Then I maintained with a small amount of molydenum for several years. Nowadays I don't even need the moly. I can eat whatever thiol foods and can take ALA with no issues with the thiols and also take small amounts of methyl B12.

The CBS SNP has been shown to be not that important by Ben Lynch and others. Even having mercury is not a guarantee (only 30% of people with mercury have thiol issues). I think the real culprit is arsenic. If you look on Lynch's pathway planner or a Strategene report, you can see that arsenic is an inhibitor of SUOX and that moly is a co-factor.

You've touched on an important issue here. After all what use is being able to make Glutathione if its not hanging around to cause lasting healing AND (based on that beautiful NAC article by Wheldon) prevent the colonisation of the colon by yeasts which probably explains SIBO relapse in many patients following antibiotic treatment. Sometimes you come across some useful pieces of info from the least expected sources/links. One in question is here
which I take to mean that Nicotinic acid/Niacin acts to recycle existing glutathione? (Assuming NADH+ that she refers to is created by Nicotinic acid) ??

I googled a little and it does look like that might be true. If you take nicotinic acid though, keep it on the low side (like under 30mg (IIRC) or it will slow methylation. There is also a supplement called NADH, which I have tried and don't tolerate. There are people on the Cutler forums who use niacin for MCS, so that totally makes sense now. Maybe I could add a bit of that with the vit. C and get even more MCS relief.

[Based on the detox SNP's that you can see summarised in my avatar (left of this msg?) would I be correct in saying I've got quite a bad detox setup and a fairly average collection of methylation SNP's? I say this because I'm completely absent GSTT1? which I seem to recall as being an important SNP for Glutathione production.

The methylation and detox (the CYP part) looks pretty typical for people on here, although not as many people have the glutathione SNP absent.

Various metals can also screw up glutathione production and recycling (arsenic, mercury, etc.). The metals (epigenetics) have a larger effect than the genetics, and can screw up enzymes and genetics even if your SNPs are not mutated.

So you can either take supplements which are co-factors of genes, or you can remove the toxins (inhibitors of genes) to make improvements. A lot people either don't know that or forget that. They're mainly focused on what supplements they can take.

 

[caledonia]

@Journeyman I just saw some relevant info on niacin and MCS from Cutler. There are a couple forms of niacin, so that always confuses me.

Niacin = nicotinic acid - this is can be used to slow methylation

Niacinamide is niacin with an amide added - this is what Cutler says to use for MCS. The mechanism is that MCS is a fast liver Phase I detox pathway paired with a slow Phase II detox pathway. The niacinamide will slow Phase I, thus giving relief.

I think you can look at MCS as either a glutathione deficiency issue or a Phase I / Phase II mismatch issue or a little of both. With the ultimate source being mercury + arsenic screwing up the various enzymes actions (according to Cutler).

 

[Journeyman]

@Journeyman I just saw some relevant info on niacin and MCS from Cutler. There are a couple forms of niacin, so that always confuses me.

Niacin = nicotinic acid - this is can be used to slow methylation

Niacinamide is niacin with an amide added - this is what Cutler says to use for MCS. The mechanism is that MCS is a fast liver Phase I detox pathway paired with a slow Phase II detox pathway. The niacinamide will slow Phase I, thus giving relief.

I think you can look at MCS as either a glutathione deficiency issue or a Phase I / Phase II mismatch issue or a little of both. With the ultimate source being mercury + arsenic screwing up the various enzymes actions (according to Cutler).

@caledonia
I definitely have poor phase II liver function as supported by my unfortunate collection of detox SNP's: CYP1A2, CYP2B1, CYP2D6. To counteract this I consumed a diet high in foods that promote Phase II enzymes (Primarily cruciferous vegetables) however upon learning of my SIBO I suddenly excluded these foods from my diet since about March 2017 and instead supplement 1 DIM tablet a day which has Calcium D-Glucarate included (great product: https://au.iherb.com/pr/Jarrow-Formulas-DIM-CDG-Enhanced-Detoxification-Formula-30-Veggie-Caps/57032 )


Btw, I couldn't help but recall the segway we found ourselves on re: niacin. Look at this interesting bit of info where the most interesting quote is:

"Lithium inhibits mir-34a, which inhibits NAMPT, the enzyme that makes NAD+ (R) So lithium should technically increase NAMPT and NAD+ by taking the breaks away from its production."


How fortunate that this is now my 3rd day adding Lithium (Li+2) to my methylation supplementation protocol. Where I recently read that Lithium may be vital for transporting B12 through its interaction with Transcolbamin II ?? Perhaps Lithium is the missing ingredient from many PWC's methylation protocols that has somehow been neglected what with our constant focus on MeB12 and L-5MTHF alone...

 

[consuegra]

Hi Eastman,

You're preaching to the converted. I actually had an Organic Acids Test done by Great Plains Labs this time last year that confirmed I had SIBO and you're quite right. For almost every day over the past year I take 1 'Super Enzymes' by Now (includes Ox Bile) alongside 648gm of Betaine HCL (another NOW branded product) and I'm sure its allowed me to function substantially better in terms of concentration, and most notably: being able to have energy from heavy meals such as chicken/lamb/fish based dishes.

Any recommendations on what else I can do. It looks like a stool test would be the most fruitful avenue to uncover any further issues that might explain my still unsatisfactory energy/concentration/anxiety levels...?

What elements on the OAT test confirmed that you had SIBO?

Chris

 

[vaer]

What elements on the OAT test confirmed that you had SIBO?

Chris

For e.g. Indican , hippurate ...

but please note these markers only indicate.

I have attached a journal review that is great .


Yes OP please tell us what markers indicated such

kind regards

 

[jason30]

Hey @caledonia glad to get your input again. I've bookmarked the video and listened up to the first 30 mins. Looks like the Gall Bladder stasis is the source of SIBO in many cases. I didn't hear their input regarding the PEMT gene but I'm sure I'll find it upon a full viewing of the video. I

Regards

Journeyman

That is really interesting. I have got SIBO and my health went backwards after 2 prostate infections (with a lot of antibiotics).
Could the prostate bacteria still be there in less amount and infects me?