Severely Depressed from Die-Off/Herx? Probiotics? Virus? Lyme? Co Infection? What's Happening?

[ljimbo423]

I was wondering if anyone else has experienced depression with gut treatments? Is this just part of the initial immune activation?

I experience significant depression from doing gut treatments. I also think it's caused by immune system activation. I need to take very small doses of anything that kills off yeast or bacteria in the gut, even probiotics.

It stinks having to go so slow in treating my gut but the depression and fatigue I get from going to fast isn't worth it. I only experience mild depression from time to time but die off symptoms from treating the gut, will bring them on in a hurry.

On the bright side, by taking small doses of supps. and allowing my body to adjust to them over a few days or even several days, I have been able to consistently treat my gut for a few months now, with good results.

 

[outdamnspot]

I experience significant depression from doing gut treatments. I also think it's caused by immune system activation. I need to take very small doses of anything that kills off yeast or bacteria in the gut, even probiotics.

It stinks having to go so slow in treating my gut but the depression and fatigue I get from going to fast isn't worth it. I only experience mild depression from time to time but die off symptoms from treating the gut, will bring them on in a hurry.

On the bright side, by taking small doses of supps. and allowing my body to adjust to them over a few days or even several days, I have been able to consistently treat my gut for a few months now, with good results.

Have you found that, even with your more gentle approach, that you still have go through some degree of discomfort before you feel better?

For example, several of the probiotics I tried made me feel *toxic* -- more inflamed, muddy stools, breathless etc. It just felt wrong and I stopped after a few days.

The Symbioflor is making me feel 'sick', but it's different, and feels more Herx-y; my symptoms are flu-like, i.e. sore muscles, sore throat, sweating, worsened OI etc. and not really toxic. But still, it is quite disabling. The good thing is that Symbioflor is administered from a dropper bottle, so I can try lowering the dose, but I'm wondering if I'm still gonna have to get through some unpleasantness to feel better.

 

[ljimbo423]

Have you found that, even with your more gentle approach, that you still have go through some degree of discomfort before you feel better?

Yes, I do still get symptoms from even very low doses, it's just more tolerable than the higher doses.

The Symbioflor is making me feel 'sick', but it's different, and feels more Herx-y; my symptoms are flu-like, i.e. sore muscles, sore throat, sweating, worsened OI etc. and not really toxic. But still, it is quite disabling.

I get very similar symptoms from regular probiotics (eg, acidophillus and bifidus)
and antibiotic herbs, very much flu-like. Especially antibiotic herbs like oil of oregano, give me a serious flare. All the symptoms you mention except the OI, I don't have OI issues.

The good thing is that Symbioflor is administered from a dropper bottle, so I can try lowering the dose, but I'm wondering if I'm still gonna have to get through some unpleasantness to feel better.

I have found that the die-off/flu-like symptoms from supps is dose dependent, and if I can take a low enough dose, I can tolerate many supps that I couldn't at a higher dose.

 

[outdamnspot]

Yes, I do still get symptoms from even very low doses, it's just more tolerable than the higher doses.
.

When you experience depression from gut treatments, does it have a particular quality to it? Since starting the Symbioflor 2 last week, I have just been feeling overwhelmingly .. sad and grey and foggy/apathetic; like nothing is enjoyable, or even worth the bother. It's almost worse than my usual keyed-up state. I'm trying to remind myself it might just be die-off, but it's hard to know -- I don't have any other overt signs of immunte activation, aside from a sore throat and lower blood pressure, as well as foul-smelling gas (sorry), which could indicate die-off.

 

[ljimbo423]

When you experience depression from gut treatments, does it have a particular quality to it?

I have noticed that different supps for the gut, give me different symptoms. With some of them I experience more or different depression and/or anxiety, than with others.

I'm trying to remind myself it might just be die-off, but it's hard to know

That has been one of my biggest hurdles and still is sometimes. I get those same feelings you talk about, sadness, grey, foggy headed, apathetic, etc. Which make me feel like I'm on the wrong track or doing something wrong with my supps or something.

I realized just in the last year, how much die-off PROFOUNDLY messes up my thinking. So even when I'm doing everything wright, I feel like I'm on the wrong track, because of the die-off. It sounds like you are experiencing die-off, which is miserable, but it could mean you are doing something good for yourself.

If you can lower the dose or take it every other day, that might help. Unfortunately, treating dysbiosis with supps, comes with some degree of die-off. I think the best any of us can do is try to make the die-off as manageable as possible by adjusting the dose.

 

[outdamnspot]

I have noticed that different supps for the gut, give me different symptoms. With some of them I experience more or different depression and/or anxiety, than with others.

That has been one of my biggest hurdles and still is sometimes. I get those same feelings you talk about, sadness, grey, foggy headed, apathetic, etc. Which make me feel like I'm on the wrong track or doing something wrong with my supps or something.

I realized just in the last year, how much die-off PROFOUNDLY messes up my thinking. So even when I'm doing everything wright, I feel like I'm on the wrong track, because of the die-off. It sounds like you are experiencing die-off, which is miserable, but it could mean you are doing something good for yourself.

If you can lower the dose or take it every other day, that might help. Unfortunately, treating dysbiosis with supps, comes with some degree of die-off. I think the best any of us can do is try to make the die-off as manageable as possible by adjusting the dose.

Thanks for the response. The problem for me is that a) I have a lot of baseline depression and anxiety, and b) I am really non-functional as it is. So when I get hit by the apathy and depression, I start to just presume it's my own natural depression creeping in (and that, as you say, I'm doing something wrong); and on top of that, the fog disables me, which is frustrating.

I'm someone who can suffer through discomfort if I feel like there is some reward awaiting, and some treatments like coffee enemas (don't laugh - they've been helpful) made me feel extremely 'sick' at first, but it was very obvious it was die-off, because I was shivering, running to the bathroom etc.

The Symbioflor feels more subtle, insofar as most of the symptoms are mental, and the rest are just like a light flu -- I almost wish I just felt more obviously unwell so I could remember it's die-off. It's only been about 6 days, so I think I will keep going at this dose and see if things improve.

 

[ljimbo423]

The Symbioflor feels more subtle, insofar as most of the symptoms are mental, and the rest are just like a light flu

I recently started taking ox bile, because I read it was a good antimicrobial. I had a very strange die-off from it though. When I get die-off It's usually fatigue, brain fog, and significant flu-like symptoms. With the ox bile I felt a lift in energy, my thinking seemed to clear some and only very minor flu-like symptoms.

It's hard to know what pathogens are being killed off in the gut by a supplement. My hunch is that each supp. kills off different bugs, causing to some degree, different die-off symptoms. Because each different pathogen and it's lipopolysaccharies etc., stimulates the immune system in it's own way.

I'm someone who can suffer through discomfort if I feel like there is some reward awaiting

I've been treating my gut with a low carb diet and herbal antimicrobials for about 4 months now and have improved very noticeably and continue to improve. I think treating the gut can have big rewards. I have to increase the dose of antimicrobials I take VERY slowly though or the die-off becomes debilitating.

It's only been about 6 days, so I think I will keep going at this dose and see if things improve.

That sounds like reasonable plan of attack.

 

[outdamnspot]

I recently started taking ox bile, because I read it was a good antimicrobial. I had a very strange die-off from it though. When I get die-off It's usually fatigue, brain fog, and significant flu-like symptoms. With the ox bile I felt a lift in energy, my thinking seemed to clear some and only very minor flu-like symptoms.

It's hard to know what pathogens are being killed off in the gut by a supplement. My hunch is that each supp. kills off different bugs, causing to some degree, different die-off symptoms. Because each different pathogen and it's lipopolysaccharies etc., stimulates the immune system in it's own way.



I've been treating my gut with a low carb diet and herbal antimicrobials for about 4 months now and have improved very noticeably and continue to improve. I think treating the gut can have big rewards. I have to increase the dose of antimicrobials I take VERY slowly though or the die-off becomes debilitating.





That sounds like reasonable plan of attack.

How do you coordinate taking probiotics with antimicrobials (since presumably, the antimicrobials might kill off some of what you're trying to repopulate)? Do you alternate, or take them together?

Edit: also, out of interest, did you experience taste changes as a die-off symptom -- like food tasting weird, or a weird taste in your mouth?

 

[ljimbo423]

How do you coordinate taking probiotics with antimicrobials (since presumably, the antimicrobials might kill off some of what you're trying to repopulate)? Do you alternate, or take them together?

I used to worry about antimicrobials killing off the good bacteria, but I never noticed any difference in how I felt, whenever I took them. I really don't think It's a problem with natural antimicrobials, although I would not take prescription antibiotics with probiotics for that very reason.

I do take my probiotic on an empty stomach with about 8 ounces of water, to help dilute stomach acid and to speed up transit through the stomach.

out of interest, did you experience taste changes as a die-off symptom -- like food tasting weird, or a weird taste in your mouth?

Food has tasted weird to me from die-off on occasion, I have also noticed strange tastes in my mouth, one of which has been a metallic taste from time to time.

What happens more often though, is either food has less taste or more taste. There have been times when I cooked up a usual dish and it tasted unbelievably delicious, like I haven't eaten in 3 days.

I actually just went up on the dose of oregon grape root I take. I went up just 100mg and if the die off is mild, I'll go up another 100mg within the next few days. Like I said, it's a slow process, but it's one that works very well and much easier for me to stick to.

 

[outdamnspot]

I used to worry about antimicrobials killing off the good bacteria, but I never noticed any difference in how I felt, whenever I took them. I really don't think It's a problem with natural antimicrobials, although I would not take prescription antibiotics with probiotics for that very reason.

I do take my probiotic on an empty stomach with about 8 ounces of water, to help dilute stomach acid and to speed up transit through the stomach.

Thanks again for your help. Was there ever a turning point where you thought -- yes, I'm on the right track -- rather than just exposing yourself to endless die-off?

I did two (horrible) weeks on Flagyl and Ampicillin, and felt no different whatsoever afterwards. So I wonder if e.g. with the Symbioflor, there will be a point where I improve from my baseline. It seems a bit grim to just have to endure constant die-off with each new agent.

 

[ljimbo423]

Thanks again for your help. Was there ever a turning point where you thought -- yes, I'm on the right track -- rather than just exposing yourself to endless die-off?

Glad to help. It took me about 3 weeks to get on a regular dosage schedule, which minimized die off. At first I was trying to get everything perfect for the best and fastest results, but I quickly realized that would not work for me. After getting the right dose and dosing schedule, after about 3 weeks. I felt a very noticeable increase in energy, more clarity of mind and less PEM. That was a turning point for me, when I really felt like I was on the right track!

I tried to take a different antimicrobial herb every day for 3 days and continue that dosing schedule. The die off was too much though, so I just took 1 herb at a very low dose until the die off subsided, then go up a little again, once the die off had passed.


I knew I couldn't handle week after week of die-off, so the only choice I had left was to lower the dose and go up on the doses more slowly, or give up. Since I know I can't get healthy without treating the gut, giving up was not an option.

So I wonder if e.g. with the Symbioflor, there will be a point where I improve from my baseline. It seems a bit grim to just have to endure constant die-off with each new agent.

Based on my experience with 3 different antimicrobial herbs, ox bile and going from 25 to 60 billion cfu's of probiotics over the last 4 months. If debilitating die off lasted more than 2-3 days, I would cut back on the dosage and that has always made the die off manageable, with all 4 of these antimicrobials and the probiotic.

 

[outdamnspot]

I tried to take a different antimicrobial herb every day for 3 days and continue that dosing schedule. The die off was too much though, so I just took 1 herb at a very low dose until the die off subsided, then go up a little again, once the die off had passed.
.

Did you ever try Haritaki? Ken recommends it, but also warns it can kill off good E.Coli. The only other herb I have on hand is Oil of Oregano.

 

[ljimbo423]

Did you ever try Haritaki? Ken recommends it, but also warns it can kill off good E.Coli. The only other herb I have on hand is Oil of Oregano.

I have never tried Haritaki, but if you have it and decide to try it, I would start with a vary low dose, like about 100mg and see how the die off goes. If you experience too much die off, you are much less likely to continue with the anti-microbials.

I have read much of what Ken has written in his blogs. As they say "knowledge is power". He put his CFS in remission 2 times, not knowing he was actually treating his gut.

Then the third time, knowing it was his gut causing his symptoms, it only took him 6 months to put it back in remission. Oil of oregano is very potent and might not be the best anti-microbial to start with. Unless you have the liquid, then you can start with just 1 drop if you want, that's what I did.

After 4 months on these anti-microbials, it seems like the die off is getting much milder when I go up on the dose. So I think I am getting the upper hand with this dysbiosis. There are a lot of spices that are very good anti-microbials. Cinnamon is one, as are rosemary, thyme, and sage. I take 250mg cinnamon every day, as a powder.

If you have rosemary, thyme, or sage, you could make a tea and just drink an ounce or two and see how the die off goes. Then you can increase your dose at whatever pace is comfortable.

 

[outdamnspot]

I have never tried Haritaki, but if you have it and decide to try it, I would start with a vary low dose, like about 100mg and see how the die off goes. If you experience too much die off, you are much less likely to continue with the anti-microbials.

I have read much of what Ken has written in his blogs. As they say "knowledge is power". He put his CFS in remission 2 times, not knowing he was actually treating his gut.

Then the third time, knowing it was his gut causing his symptoms, it only took him 6 months to put it back in remission. Oil of oregano is very potent and might not be the best anti-microbial to start with. Unless you have the liquid, then you can start with just 1 drop if you want, that's what I did.

After 4 months on these anti-microbials, it seems like the die off is getting much milder when I go up on the dose. So I think I am getting the upper hand with this dysbiosis. There are a lot of spices that are very good anti-microbials. Cinnamon is one, as are rosemary, thyme, and sage. I take 250mg cinnamon every day, as a powder.

If you have rosemary, thyme, or sage, you could make a tea and just drink an ounce or two and see how the die off goes. Then you can increase your dose at whatever pace is comfortable.

Is it okay to start taking the herbs at night, before bed, in order to try and sleep through any die-off?

 

[ljimbo423]

Is it okay to start taking the herbs at night, before bed, in order to try and sleep through any die-off?

If I remember right, that's what Ken Lassesen did, when he could. I think it's a great idea, as long as it don't interfere with your sleep. Even if it does interfere with your sleep a little, it might be a worth while trade off to get rid of the dysbiosis.

Are you on a low carb diet of some kind? One of the biggest mistake's I've made in the last several years, is trying to kill off SIBO/dysbiosis without a low carb diet.

For most people it's almost impossible to re-balance dysbiosis without a low carb diet, even if taking pharmaceutical anti-biotics for it. I was taking big doses of oil of oregano (equal to 3-4.5 grams of the herb) and 6-800mg of berberine every day, for months and noticed almost no improvement at all, because I wasn't on a low carb diet.

Ken Lassesen now stays on a low carb diet to prevent the dysbiosis from coming back and his symptoms with it.

 

[outdamnspot]

If I remember right, that's what Ken Lassesen did, when he could. I think it's a great idea, as long as it don't interfere with your sleep. Even if it does interfere with your sleep a little, it might be a worth while trade off to get rid of the dysbiosis.

Are you on a low carb diet of some kind? One of the biggest mistake's I've made in the last several years, is trying to kill off SIBO/dysbiosis without a low carb diet.

For most people it's almost impossible to re-balance dysbiosis without a low carb diet, even if taking pharmaceutical anti-biotics for it. I was taking big doses of oil of oregano (equal to 3-4.5 grams of the herb) and 6-800mg of berberine every day, for months and noticed almost no improvement at all, because I wasn't on a low carb diet.

Ken Lassesen now stays on a low carb diet to prevent the dysbiosis from coming back and his symptoms with it.

Thanks. I took a teaspoon of Haritaki earlier while getting ready for bed. The acute effects were quite amazing -- I've been feeling increasingly weak, breathless, confused etc. the past few days, and within 5 minutes, I was calm, more subtly energized, and clearheaded. Ken recommended taking it for a week or two to kill dysbiotic overgrowths. The only downside is it also kills beneficial E.Coli. I tried Symbioflor 2 recently (which I think is at least 2 E.Coli strains bound together) and did badly on it. So I am wondering if it would be worth trying Mutaflor next or not.

I'm on a strict Keto diet, and it's been the most helpful thing I've done (since I was getting a lot of hypoglycemia when I started). What's funny is my doctor was trying to talk me out of it last week, saying it's probably contributing to my fatigue and depression, but I can't go back to having hypoglycemia attacks every 2 hours ..

 

[ljimbo423]

So I am wondering if it would be worth trying Mutaflor next or not.

I've never tried Mutaflor. I use a high dose probiotic (60 billion per day) with 5 strains of lactobacillus and bifidus in it.

I'm on a strict Keto diet, and it's been the most helpful thing I've done (since I was getting a lot of hypoglycemia when I started).

Congrats on the keto diet! I tried it last year, but couldn't get past the keto flu, even after 4-6 weeks. Instead I stick to the Specific carbohydrate diet. I don't eat any starchy foods at all though, no potatoes, rice, corn, oatmeal, pasta etc. I would love to do the keto diet, but my body just won't cooperate.

 

[ljimbo423]

I took a teaspoon of Haritaki earlier while getting ready for bed.

I hope the die off from that is tolerable. As you probably know it takes up to 3 days for the full effects of die off to be felt.

 

[outdamnspot]

I hope the die off from that is tolerable. As you probably know it takes up to 3 days for the full effects of die off to be felt.

Hi ljimbo,

I ended up doing a 4-week course of Haritaki and felt *significantly* better while on it -- deeper sleep, better mood etc. I can't recall if I mentioned this already, but according to Ken, it kills good E.Coli too, so I realized it's probably not beneficial to remain on too long. I am guessing it might have had adaptogenic properties that were helping me, in addition to killing stuff in my gut. It's been two days since I stopped it and I feel awful -- really weak, anxious etc. -- again.

I was just wondering if you could possibly list the herbs you've tried, and was also wondering if you found any of them physically 'rejuvinating' in the way I found Haritaki? I was thinking of trying Neem next.

 

[ljimbo423]

It's been two days since I stopped it and I feel awful -- really weak, anxious etc. -- again.

I think what happens is, as soon as you stop the supplements killing off the bad bacteria, they immediately start growing back again, until we have enough good bacteria in our gut to keep them in check. Once there's enough good bacteria in the gut, they will keep the bad bacteria from overgrowing again, and causing symptoms. Does that make sense?

I was just wondering if you could possibly list the herbs you've tried, and was also wondering if you found any of them physically 'rejuvinating' in the way I found Haritaki? I was thinking of trying Neem next.

I have been taking cinnamon, oregon grape root, and oil of oregano for a few months now. I find that every time I increase the dosage of any of these, after the die off subsides in a few days, I feel an improvement in my health.

It sounds like you are able to tolerate die off fairly well. If that's true, here is a good inexpensive oil of oregano supplement. Are you on a low carb diet? I have found that a low carb diet is crucial to beating sibo/dysbiosis.

I have not tried neem yet, it's suppose to be a good herb for sibo, but I don't think it's nearly as strong as oil of oregano. I think it all depends on how well you handle die off, the better you can handle it, the stronger the herbs you will be able to take.

I ended up doing a 4-week course of Haritaki and felt *significantly* better while on it -- deeper sleep, better mood etc.

Good to hear you felt such a big improvement! If you felt that much better after just 4 weeks of treatment, image how much better you will feel once the sibo/dysbiosis is gone completely! It could take 6 months or even longer, depending on the severity of your sibo/dysbiosis, how well you can tolerate higher doses of antibiotic herbs, and how well you stick to a low carb diet.

If I remember right, I think this last time Ken got well, it took him 6 months.