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ron davis ME & you & us and glucose?

merylg

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I have messed up glucose metabolism & raised fasting insulin. A 2 hr GTT with insulins put me in pre-Type 2 diabetic range. Also have ‘fatty liver’ & Mito Prof recommended low GI diet. My fasting glucose is OK. On HCG diet I could get fasting insulin back to normal.

However I think to measure if insulin is inappropriately secreted during anaerobic exercise you would need some blood testing soon after exercise by an exercise physiologist. Likely I’m too weak & sick to even do that now.
 

wastwater

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When EBV lowers FOXO1 expression this effects glucose
I crave sugar and have high readings after meals and low in the morning,maybe this is the reason for erratic potassium readings as well
 
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Frunobulax

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I have messed up glucose metabolism & raised fasting insulin. A 2 hr GTT with insulins put me in pre-Type 2 diabetic range. Also have ‘fatty liver’ & Mito Prof recommended low GI diet. My fasting glucose is OK. On HCG diet I could get fasting insulin back to normal.

However I think to measure if insulin is inappropriately secreted during anaerobic exercise you would need some blood testing soon after exercise by an exercise physiologist. Likely I’m too weak & sick to even do that now.
If your bg is in prediabetic range then your insulin is constantly elevated (metabolic syndrome), which causes systemic inflammation. A ketogenic diet is the only proven way to reverse this. Low GI may work for a few, but not for all of us.

Keto may relieve ME/CFS symptoms independent of insulin levels because many of us seem to have issues with the carbohydrate pathway of ATP generation, as evidenced by the recent research from Maureen Hanson and others. Getting energy from fat circumvents this.

I find it fascinating how many ME/CFS patients are reluctant to try keto. I mean, I would give my right arm to get better, hands down. Why is it so difficult to switch to a diet where you can eat whenever you want, as much as you want, pretty much what you want (with some exceptions) for just a few weeks to see if it makes a difference?
 

tyson oberle

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find it fascinating how many ME/CFS patients are reluctant to try keto. I mean, I would give my right arm to get better, hands down. Why is it so difficult to switch to a diet where you can eat whenever you want, as much as you want, pretty much what you
I personally like fatty meats, fatty fish, whole chicken (with fat, skin, organs, etc), and nuts but I get much more nasal inflammation from fatty meats (also from lean meats and it doesn't matter if grass fed and/or raw or aged or not aged), fatty fish (also from lean fish and it doesn't matter if wild caught and/or raw, fresh or canned), fatty whole chicken, whole milk/yoghurt (goat, camel, sheep, cow and it doesn't matter whether raw or not) raw organic nuts, raw organic seeds, and organic peanuts or organic peanut butter. At first I thought it was the protein only from these foods, but then to experiment I tried eating for a meal only animal lard or butter (raw, ghee, goat, cow, etc) or pork rinds, raw coconut meat, or even dried olives (no extra ingredients) and I got immediate nasal congestion or if not immediate nasal congestion then sometimes 1 to 3 hours later.
According to my research, nasal congestion is usually due to membranes lining the nose becoming swollen from inflamed blood vessels. So I think in my case I am inflaming my blood vessels. I have also sometimes noticed my hands and feet getting colder from eating those foods. Right now the only way for me to avoid or reduce nasal congestion is to eat those above mentioned foods with greens or vegetables and to not eat too much of those foods. And I take Thorne Hcl Betaine, Thorne Biogest, Jarrow Bile Acid Factors and other digestive enzymes. Incidentally, a meal of only raw avocado does not cause nasal inflammation for me even though it is high in fat and high in histamine.
 
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xebex

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.

I find it fascinating how many ME/CFS patients are reluctant to try keto. I mean, I would give my right arm to get better, hands down. Why is it so difficult to switch to a diet where you can eat whenever you want, as much as you want, pretty much what you want (with some exceptions) for just a few weeks to see if it makes a difference?
I tried keto for 10minths, got worse and worse on it. I was taking all my electrolytes but just got weaker and weaker :( low gi seems to be better for me but that is hard to maintain, intermittent fasting helps with symptoms but doesn’t seem to make much of a difference to Over all function. Am going to try a longer fast each day (16hiurs instead of 14) and see if that helps might even try and get it up to 18.
 

Frunobulax

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I tried keto for 10minths, got worse and worse on it. I was taking all my electrolytes but just got weaker and weaker :( low gi seems to be better for me but that is hard to maintain, intermittent fasting helps with symptoms but doesn’t seem to make much of a difference to Over all function. Am going to try a longer fast each day (16hiurs instead of 14) and see if that helps might even try and get it up to 18.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think keto is for everyone, and especially with ME/CFS we might have very unusual reactions. It's possible that you can't metabolize fat for some reason, or you increased the intake of some other antinutrient (for example if people start to eat a lot of almonds they may experience various symptoms from high oxalates).

But I still think it was worth a try -- I know quite a lot of ME/CFS cases personally (being in a specialized hospital for several weeks a year), and I'd say that more than half of the patients that tried keto saw improvement and are sticking to keto or low carb. For the others, I haven't heard about a single case where there was a problem going back to the previous diet. So if their condition got worse, it was only temporary until they stopped the keto diet. My sample size may not be large enough to constitute any proof, but I still think it's a low-risk intervention that should be tried. If it works, cool. If it doesn't, well, just go back to the old diet.

However, the overwhelming majority of patients never tried keto, with reasons varying from "I don't want to lose more weight" (which would be unusual as well, underweight people are more likely to gain muscle mass on keto) to "I can't live without chocolate" (surprisingly often).

I personally like fatty meats, fatty fish, whole chicken (with fat, skin, organs, etc), and nuts but I get much more nasal inflammation from fatty meats (also from lean meats and it doesn't matter if grass fed and/or raw or aged or not aged), fatty fish (also from lean fish and it doesn't matter if wild caught and/or raw, fresh or canned), fatty whole chicken, whole milk/yoghurt (goat, camel, sheep, cow and it doesn't matter whether raw or not) raw organic nuts, raw organic seeds, and organic peanuts or organic peanut butter.
That's fairly unusual. Interesting - I must admit that I have no idea what could cause this, because the fat composition of these things are very different (coconut oil is almost completely different than butter/ghee, for example), and I don't see the common ingredient. One of the things that might give you a clue why you have ME/CFS if you figure out what exactly is causing this, but it might be fairly difficult to do so...
 

xebex

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Don't get me wrong. I don't think keto is for everyone,
Thanks for your reply! Oh I totally believe keto is a great intervention that pretty much everyone should try, you are right I did have some kind of issue with fat metabolism it could even be an indicator to what causes my ME as you mentioned for Tyson, I don’t have an issue with fats if I eat carbs but when i take carbs out of the equation I get reflux, asthma, and my blood volume seems to go down and pain get worse and I get weake. I just did a 60 hour fast and although I felt more energy I also got asthma again and blood volume went down again. Going to try and be more strict with the low GI and maybe slowly transition to keto but I’m not sure a slow transition would be helpful probably just draw out the process. But I do agree with you that keto seems like the right course to go on and I’m very frustrated that I can’t get it to work!
 

Wishful

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I tried keto for 10minths, got worse and worse on it.
That's the issue for me. I tried going off carbs, though I'm not sure whether I was low enough on protein to be full keto. I tried that for a couple of weeks, and felt much worse, so I stopped. Proponents might say "Oh, you didn't try it long enough." but there's no way to know how much longer is required to determine if it's not going to work at all. I don't want to suffer needlessly for 10 months just because a keto diet worked well for someone else.
 

Frunobulax

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That's the issue for me. I tried going off carbs, though I'm not sure whether I was low enough on protein to be full keto. I tried that for a couple of weeks, and felt much worse, so I stopped. Proponents might say "Oh, you didn't try it long enough." but there's no way to know how much longer is required to determine if it's not going to work at all.
But you did stop too early, unfortunately. Keto flu lasts around 3 weeks, not longer than 4. The body needs a month to become (mostly) fat adapted. (Edit: If anything, it could take longer for ME/CFS.) This is well known, both from studies and from keto websites.

Also the fact that you have keto flu in the first place means that you have metabolic syndrome and should switch to keto, most likely. Keto flu in a nutshell is that your body can't switch from burning carbs to burning body fat, which is in most cases a consequence of high insulin levels (=metabolic syndrome).
 
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xebex

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So for me the first week on keto I felt great 2nd week I got keto flu that’s took maybe a week to get Over then the first two months were ok ish, didn’t really feel much different, maybe mentally brighter and migraines reduced but energy wise it didnt do anything then I got worse, persisted for 8 months trying all different ratios of electrolytes trying different macro ratios. Migraine every day and the muscles in my back became so weak I could hardly stand. I think likely I have some kind of fat metabolism issue, but so hard to even know where to start.
 
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I also have, until very recently, had trouble with my appetite. Since getting sick I have gained 15 pounds :(
I tried a very low carb keto diet for about 3 weeks and actually gained weight! Then I started questioning why I was overeating, and had to admit that there might be an emotional component. So I bought some very low calorie mints, and use them when I feel hungry but have already eaten enough.


I recently read that ME/CFS sufferers have problems with the conversion of ammonia to urea. Normally, ammonia is a byproduct of protein metabolism. The ammonia is carried by the blood stream to the liver, where it is converted to urea, then the urea is excreted by the kidneys. However, the conversion process requires ATP, which seems to be in short supply for us sufferers. This may slow down the process, causing a build up of ammonia in the blood.
After I read this article, I wondered if I have ever noticed being more tired after eating more protein rich foods. This answer so far is no. Lately I have limited my protein intake and I have been feeling much more tired than usual (probably unrelated.)
There is a new study that finds slower clearance of lactate from the blood in ME/CFS. This may be a related phenomena. The metabolism (conversion) of lactate takes an enormous amount of ATP.

I tried to track down the links, but wasn't successful.
 

Marylib

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Here is research out of Australia regarding hypermetabolism. I think that Cort did a blog on it at one point. And I think that the clinician who was supplying the test subjects has passed away, sadly. Neil MacGregor (sp?) is the chief author. I definitely get hypermetabolic sometimes. I use coca cola or energy drinks when I need to. You don't want to get too thin when you can't eat. And I used to get blood sugar problems but not anymore - I don't overdo it with sugar anymore, but I am not sugar-phobic by any means. I tried the keto diet for nearly a year and it made absolutely no difference and it was expensive. And I lost too much weight.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31277442
 
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Marylib

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Here is research out of Australia regarding hypermetabolism. No doubt Ron Davis is aware or it, but everyone is competing for funding. And competition is good in science.

I think that Cort did a blog on it at one point. And I think that the clinician who was supplying the test subjects has passed away, sadly. Neil MacGregor (sp?) is the chief author. I definitely get hypermetabolic sometimes. I use coca cola or energy drinks when I need to.

You don't want to get too thin when you can't eat. And I used to get blood sugar problems when I could exercise (probably would have called it FM at that point,) but not anymore - I don't overdo it with sugar these days, but I am not sugar-phobic by any means.

I tried the keto diet for nearly a year and it made absolutely no difference and it was expensive. And I lost too much weight.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31277442
 

ljimbo423

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How can you tell if you have disbiosis or leaky gut?
A stool test can help you find out if you have dysbiosis. As was said in another post, a zonulin blood or stool test or a lactulose/mannitol test can help you find out if you have a leaky gut.

Given the many studies done on ME/CFS patients, finding a very high percentage of us having dysbiosis and leaky gut. The chances of you not having these things are very small.
 
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Given the many studies done on ME/CFS patients, finding a very high percentage of us having dysbiosis and leaky gut. The chances of you not having these things are very small
So the percentage who simply have IBS or some off gut thing is- around 8%...(recalling without looking up, be warned). Then folks with ME are like around 2%. So there is some difference, between ME IBS and other version of IBS and it would be quite interesting to understand- how these differ.

Why is my friend with SEVERE Crohns...and has had operations and horrible dietary restrictions...she has all the energy in the world. She just goes and goes and I faint on the hillside.
 

ljimbo423

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Why is my friend with SEVERE Crohns...and has had operations and horrible dietary restrictions...she has all the energy in the world. She just goes and goes and I faint on the hillside.
I don't know for sure. My sister has had Ulcerative Colitis for decades and doesn't have ME/CFS either.

I do feel that Jarred Youngers' research finding low grade brain inflammation in ME/CFS is very likely. He also thinks that the immune cells in our brains (the microglia) are "sensitized" and overreacting to minor stimuli and that we could have a leaky Blood Brain Barrier (BBB).

He also has said he thinks activated B and T cells from the body, could be getting into the brain, through a leaky BBB, causing this inflammation.

His theory is that most or all of symptoms are coming from this brain inflammation. If he's right, those of us with ME/CFS, would need to have a leaky BBB, sensitized microglia or both to have ME/CFS and a source of immune activation coming from the body to cause the low grade brain inflammation. I think that source is a leaky gut.

This could be what separates us from others with Crohns, Colitis and others with dysbiosis and leaky gut alone, without ME/CFS.
 
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Maybe the reason the researchers seem awfully quiet here lately (if you were to ask me)...is...they are putting together grant requests....since we have this new big funding source for Gulf War Syndrome...and other research grants in the works... soliciting now.
 

wastwater

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