Role of overstress in CFS

Snow Leopard

Snow Leopard

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sorin said:
What do you think? Is overstress a possible trigger of the immune deficiency?
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"Stress" is far to vague to mean anything in this context. So too is 'psychological stress' or 'physiological stress' without explaining at multiple scales (cellular level, organ level, whole person level) and in sufficient detail what this really means.

The fact is that most people live stressful lives, yet very few develop this (or other severe illness for that matter) it is clear that stress is not a sensitive predictor of ME or CFS.
 
Skippa

Skippa

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That's why cancer is seen as an "ageing disease". You can get it at any time, but the risk increases as you age because of the accumulation of oxidative stress inside the cell (DNA damage).

Simply breathing oxygen is what ultimately leads to our demise :(

So yeah, no conclusions can be drawn from this... Yet.
 
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barbc56

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Mary said:
I totally agree. I know people who endured severe stress for many years or got sick and ate crap and did not take care of their health and did not develop CFS/ME. I wonder too what that "factor" is which allows some to sail through and others capsize (for a rather clunky metaphor! :sluggish:) under the same or similar circumstances.
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If I had to hazard a guess, it might be genetics. I may be biased as my dad just turned 96 and other than having a hard time getting around, he is still mentally sharp. He is president of his condo board, still writes for two news letters and edits the family videos. My sister just took him and his wife to Las Vegas as he has always wanted to see Penn and Teller as well as Cirque Soleil. While he did need to rest at times usually two short naps, he takes several naps a day even at home. He was pretty exhausted when he came back but then so was everyone else, but probably not to the same extent.

He has two cousins older than he is who I think are in pretty good health. Another cousin died at 105, again mentally alert until two months before her death. She was mad at her 100th Birthday party as she was only allowed to drive during the day! My dad passes his now yearly drivers test with flying colors.

He is always busy doing projects. While I think being active has helped, I sometimes wonder if his activity level is reflective of his health.

Cancer may be many diseases so not just one cause.

Just my two cents worth.

Barb
 
MeSci

MeSci

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Skippa said:
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/49/17312.full.pdfSimilarYou
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I don't have time to analyse this study properly, but I certainly don't recognise myself in "People who are stressed over long periods tend to look haggard." I've been stressed for a large proportion of my life, but have always looked young, with good skin, good hair until recently, bright-eyed and well-looking! (I'm 62.)

And it's a very common complaint among pwME that people keep telling them how well they look - because they often do.

Is it possible that the shorter telomeres cause the greater stress rather than vice versa? And that shorter telomeres are caused by genetics?
 
gregh286

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Skippa said:
Ooh, this ties in to one of my personal pet hypotheses re CFS/ME.

SOMETHING... SOMEHOW... Has led to an insensitivity or even outright intolerance to cortisol level fluctuations in the body (or perhaps one of the other stress hormones/HPA axis etc).

This does not depend on "high levels" of cortisol, but merely changes above some "base level" idiopathic to each patient. This explains why some patients have high levels of cortisol in their tests, some are low and some are normal. The effect is seen as marginal.

What do exercise, stress and illness behaviour all have in common? They have all been measured to increase cortisol (and other stress hormones).

That is why some of us can walk for an hour before the onset of PEM, but others can barely manage 5 minutes. At some point, a threshold is crossed and the body starts responding to the presence of raised cortisol as a pathogen rather than a normal response. Immune response ensues.

The real question is why? How did the body learn to get this way?
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Hi Skippa,
I often thought as cortisol influence as a major part of this enigma. When you live with something for so long you see all the small traits it throws at you and certain patterns emerge.
My reasoning for a circadian/cortisol influence was based on many small perceptions.
I think its a cortisol spike that is most dangerous to us for a crash....but its the constant cortisol is creating the constant autoimmune stress.
1. PWME mostly wake up worse and better at night - follow cortisol pattern.
2. Overnight flights etc help me....someone else here noticed that....a disrupted cortisol pattern is beneficial.
3. I improve more dramatically when i eat high carbs.....dropping cortisol via insulin release.
4. Women tend to suffer from stress more than men....possible link for the unbalanced male/female cfs ratio.
5. I can provoke a crash "on purpose" by forcing a stress surge on my body.

I think we ride close to the line all the time....and takes a little cortisol spike to tip us over.
I guess there is no real definitive way to test our theory....bar removing our adrenal glands :)
 
MeSci

MeSci

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Skippa

Skippa

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digital dog said:
Loads of people are stressed and they don't get ill.
Lots of children get ME and they were having a fun old time charging around the playground until they got a virus or inoculation.
I don't buy into this stress and ME crap.
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By the same token, loads of people get viruses and other illnesses and don't develop ME.
 
D

digital dog

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If stress played a large role in developing ME then subsections of people in various countries around the world would get it.
You would find higher incidences of ME in places where there are natural disasters, poverty, genocide etc.
 
D

digital dog

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Yes but people do not get ME from stress without another trigger.
If they do then I think the Lightning Process and things of a similar nature may well help.
 
Skippa

Skippa

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I don't think anyone would suggest that stress alone could cause ME. Not around here anyways.

I do however think intolerance of stress is a symptom of ME, regardless of stress levels before onset.
 
gregh286

gregh286

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Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
digital dog said:
If stress played a large role in developing ME then subsections of people in various countries around the world would get it.
You would find higher incidences of ME in places where there are natural disasters, poverty, genocide etc.
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Not necessarily. Stress comes in many forms. People get stressed for no reasons whilst other facing total adversity remain calm. Cortisol plays a part.Period.
Stress and cfs are close relations. Any survey done here reaffirms that.
 
BurnA

BurnA

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gregh286 said:
Not necessarily. Stress comes in many forms. People get stressed for no reasons whilst other facing total adversity remain calm. Cortisol plays a part.Period.
Stress and cfs are close relations. Any survey done here reaffirms that.
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Any survey ? Hmmmmmmmm
 
B

Battery Muncher

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digital dog said:
If stress played a large role in developing ME then subsections of people in various countries around the world would get it.
You would find higher incidences of ME in places where there are natural disasters, poverty, genocide etc.
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This may actually be the case. If I remember correctly, Nigeria has one of the highest rates of ME/CFS in the world, and higher rates of ME/CFS are present in populations with lower socio-economic status. I think it was Leonard Jason that studied this.

Of course, we can't be certain of this due to nonexistent research into ME in most countries. I think many countries do not recognise it. So the reporting of rates of ME are unreliable.

Overall, I think stress plays some role, in the sense that it weakens the body and leaves it open for attack. This makes it more likely that we pick up infections etc., some of which may trigger autoimmunity.

But I agree that stress alone cannot explain ME/CFS onset. There are many very stressed people who never come down with this illness. As you say, there are probably other factors involved.
 
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