Retrovirus in salivary glands from patients with Sjgren's syndrome

[jessjb79]

Osler's Web (pp.214-215) references an Aussie paper, Mukherjee, et.al., Abnormal Red Blood-Cell Morphology in ME, Lancet, Aug 8 1987. The paper noted the RBCs had a "globular" or "sickled" appearance that fluctuated according to symptoms.

In a 1988 conference, Komaroff and Buchwald confirmed ESR to be rock-bottom low, i.e., 0 to 2, in about 40% of "CFS" patients, something Buchwald said was only seen in sickle cell diseases. Byron Hyde further confirmed this is only otherwise found in sickle-cell anemia, inherited sperocytosis, hyper-gammoglobulinemia and hyper-fibrogenemia. (Wikipedia, FWIW, suggests likewise.)

My initial Dx of CFS/CFIDS was made by someone familiar with Cheney's work, partly on the basis of low ESR. In nearly twelve years, I've only once seen it above 3.

By the 40% measure, ESR would not be a lone biomarker, yet I still wonder why (unless I missed something) low ESR is not mentioned in the Canadian Consensus definition. That's also led me to ask whether Byron Hyde was not picked for the author board by Health Canada or chose not to participate.

Thanks Warbler for finding this.... interesting...

 

[kurt]

If you read the section on reverse transcriptse assay in the article I mentioned earlier, it talks about why these assays aren't foolproof. In fact, Kurt's articles mentions Sjogrens and the studies that have been done on it. The whole picture needs to be taken into account.

There is a study that shows that RT is produced by some activated HERVs. And we know HERVs are active in CFS. I have quoted that study somewhere on the forum, sorry don't have that link handy.

 

[justinreilly]

Very interesting! Thank you all for bringing this to our attention and elaborating!

Here's another study that seems to say that another RV, HTLV-1, is sometimes associated with Sjorgens.
http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/5/2823

I've always had a sed rate of 0, 1 and 2. I also think it would be nice to have it mentioned in diagnostic guidelines as one piece among many to consider when diagnosing.

Osler's Web did note that some of the Tahoe cohort had nonmalignant (sometimes large) parotid salivary gland tumors. Also Burkitt's lymphoma (one of the normally rare b cell lymphomas associated with ME/CFIDS) often shows up as a malignant salivary gland tumor.

Finally, I, and many ME patients are thirsty all the time (due probably partly to 'dryness' in mouth) and pee a lot at night. We, including me, also get abscessed teeth alot (probably partly due to mouth dryness).

 

[Gerwyn]

Very interesting! Thank you all for bringing this to our attention and elaborating!

Here's another study that seems to say that another RV, HTLV-1, is sometimes associated with Sjorgens.
http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/5/2823

I've always had a sed rate of 0, 1 and 2. I also think it would be nice to have it mentioned in diagnostic guidelines as one piece among many to consider when diagnosing.

Osler's Web did note that some of the Tahoe cohort had nonmalignant (sometimes large) parotid salivary gland tumors. Also Burkitt's lymphoma (one of the normally rare b cell lymphomas associated with ME/CFIDS) often shows up as a malignant salivary gland tumor.

Finally, I, and many ME patients are thirsty all the time (due probably partly to 'dryness' in mouth) and pee a lot at night. We, including me, also get abscessed teeth alot (probably partly due to mouth dryness).

snap up half the night teeth abscessed so had that I had a number of extraactions because I would not respond to antibiotics.The dentist was totally baffled

 

[Gerwyn]

Here is a bit more background on the RT essays the used in the above study:
...thus, the detection of RT activity can generally indicate the presence of a retrovirus in the absence of specific information regarding its genome or protein content. Although RT assays generally detect about 105 to 106 virus particles and are not as sensitive as infectivity or PCR assays, they are broadly reactive and have been used for the detection and isolation of different types of novel retroviruses including HIV-1 (2, 6). In addition, RT assays are routinely used in infectivity studies for the rapid and easy monitoring of retrovirus infection and replication.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC84929/

Reverse transcriptse would only occur in the presence of a rna virus it does not occur in eukaryotes and not produced by endogenous retros(HERVS) The two kinds of fatigue suggest the cytokines apart from chemokines are implicated in one kind and the other is specific to chemokines.The first assocated with high ESR and the latter low

 

[Gerwyn]

I agree, they would need to be looking directly at motor neurons themselves.

if xmrv in latent phase then no reverse transcriptase

 

[Gerwyn]

the sensitivity of the rt assay is about 100virions per ml not foolproof but pretty dammed sensitive

 

[natasa778]

Reverse transcriptse would only occur in the presence of a rna virus it does not occur in eukaryotes and not produced by endogenous retros(HERVS)

that review paper says it does get confused with some endogenous enzymes (but that RT PCR technique eliminates this risk). And it also says that it is produced by ERVs - I haven't had time to read the papers they are referencing for this, if anyone does pls post

 

[Gerwyn]

endo retros dont produce rt in vivo. it is possible to manipulate certain cell lines to obtain expression of the enzyme partcularily from hervs within mitochondrial DNA which is also prokaryotic in nature.Hervs can and do express proteins assocated with pathology but there is no evidence of RT

 

[jessjb79]

Here is a bit more background on the RT essays the used in the above study:
...thus, the detection of RT activity can generally indicate the presence of a retrovirus in the absence of specific information regarding its genome or protein content. Although RT assays generally detect about 105 to 106 virus particles and are not as sensitive as infectivity or PCR assays, they are broadly reactive and have been used for the detection and isolation of different types of novel retroviruses including HIV-1 (2, 6). In addition, RT assays are routinely used in infectivity studies for the rapid and easy monitoring of retrovirus infection and replication.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC84929/

Reverse transcriptse would only occur in the presence of a rna virus it does not occur in eukaryotes and not produced by endogenous retros(HERVS) The two kinds of fatigue suggest the cytokines apart from chemokines are implicated in one kind and the other is specific to chemokines.The first assocated with high ESR and the latter low

What's the difference between cytokines and chemokines and why is one associated with high ESR and other low?

 

[lostinthedesert]

I have those fluid balance problems. Up all night peeing etc. In my case it is due to low ADH. This is a common finding according to dr shoemaker and is in his list of diagnostic criteria. It can be an absolute or a relative low level so osmolarity and adh are tested at the same time. Low or wildly fluctuating adh levels are seen as indicating hypothalamic damage. I think low adh is also sometimes seen in head injury cases.

 

[ashler]

I used to be healthy as a horse but 2 weeks after an exposure (sexual intercourse/oral sex) in February 2012 I had an infection (including a swollen cervical node). About 4 months post exposure (June 2012) I started with dry mouth problems. Currently (July 2015) I am being treated as if I have Sjogren due severe salivary gland dysfunction which causes me xerostomia. My serologic tests including HIV, HTLV, HBV, HBC are all negative, and reumatoid tests (ANA, etc.) are negative.

My case
http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/1062157/Long-standing-dry-mouth

Photos of my tongue
http://www.medhelp.org/user_photos/list/2076759

My tests
http://goo.gl/a2h7qV

Pretty sure I contracted an unknown virus -probably a retrovirus, because retroviruses have been linked to salivary gland disease. If anyone is in a similar case, please advise. I don't have other symptoms (pain, fatigue, etc.)

 

[Jammy88]

I used to be healthy as a horse but 2 weeks after an exposure (sexual intercourse/oral sex) in February 2012 I had an infection (including a swollen cervical node). About 4 months post exposure (June 2012) I started with dry mouth problems. Currently (July 2015) I am being treated as if I have Sjogren due severe salivary gland dysfunction which causes me xerostomia. My serologic tests including HIV, HTLV, HBV, HBC are all negative, and reumatoid tests (ANA, etc.) are negative.

My case
http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/1062157/Long-standing-dry-mouth

Photos of my tongue
http://www.medhelp.org/user_photos/list/2076759

My tests
http://goo.gl/a2h7qV

Pretty sure I contracted an unknown virus -probably a retrovirus, because retroviruses have been linked to salivary gland disease. If anyone is in a similar case, please advise. I don't have other symptoms (pain, fatigue, etc.)

Hello @ashler ,
Is the treatment working properly ?

Best,
J

 

[Charles555nc]

snap up half the night teeth abscessed so had that I had a number of extraactions because I would not respond to antibiotics.The dentist was totally baffled

you should try flossing, brushing, and then rinsing with water, and then rinsing with hydrogen peroxide.