Question about anerobic threshold and m.e

[Sushi]

I haven't had my AT tested but have a pretty good idea of what it is from using a HR monitor and experimenting with different activities and exercise.

It seems that my AT is more than 20 below the healthy average yet if I stay below there I can do core exercises like pilates--lying down using machines--for an hour and not get PEM. (I do it only once a week in a class with healthies) The funny thing is that this doesn't seem to improve my aerobic ability at all!

As Heaps said, the aerobic system is up the creek!

Sushi

 

[justy]

Doing more around the house is probably enough exercise for you. The problem for me is that I still can't do housework -- too aerobic for my system, or maybe I have some mild OI -- so in order to maintain basic health I do a teensy tiny amount of core exercises laying down (from here: http://www.mstrust.org.uk/information/exercises/index_exercises.jsp).

I concur, it's all too bloody frustrating.

PS: Did you do anything in particular that improved your energy?

I can now hoover the downstairs in one go - then i have to go and lay down for a bit. BUT if i try and mop the floors i get the dreaded feeling like im going to die after a few minutes - its just too strenuous.

My improvements have come about gradually from replacing missing minerals etc, B12 daily injections a BIG help, biut mostly aggresive resting and removal of all expectations - of course i still over do it regularly. A bonus for me is i dont have POTS. I have also seen a medical herbalist for the past two years - a great help!
On the other hand i have had a partial long remmission before so it could be normal for me after a big relapse (4 years ago after nearly 10 wellish) to tend towards improvement. - so hard to know.

All the best (sorry for off topic chat) Justy.

 

[Gamboa]

This is a timely thread for me since I just received my report of a two day, Cardiopulmonary Exercise Test that I had done at Ithaca College by Dr. Betsy Keller. She follows the protocol of the Pacific Fatigue Lab.

Regarding my anaerobic threshold, it is, as expected for a CSFer, lower than it should be. I am 48 years old and according to the formula to calculate AT mine should be at 136bpm. The results I got at Ithaca show my AT is 98bpm. The report says: "These results indicate a low threshold for aerobic metabolism, above which Ms.---- derives most of her energy from anaerobic processes. For Ms.---, energy production begins to shift increasingly to anaerobic processes at low workload (3.75 METS) that is approximately equivalent to mopping the floor or sweeping the garage. However mowing the lawn (walking) would exceed her threshold." In the summary it is written " Vo2 at anaerobic threshold was very low at 3.75 METS for both tests...".

I was quite shocked at this. I consider myself a fairly fit person despite having CFS. I didn't realize so many of the things that I was doing regularly was above my AT. No wonder I am crashing all the time! I love to garden and any time I feel well I go out and garden, often doing heavy work such as digging. I also walk my dog often for over half an hour at a fast pace. Sometimes these things cause me no problem and other times I have to go to bed. I'll often crash for over a week at a time and be unable to do anything.

I guess I'll have to get a heart rate monitor and keep an eye on what I am doing and try not to overdo things.I'll also look up the different MET ratings for various activities. Apparently someone has calculated the METS for just about every move a human can make.

I have asked Dr. Keller a few things and am awaiting an answer. One of which is, can I do anything to increase my AT? I know healthy people can but I'm not sure about people with CFS. Does anyone here know?

Gamboa

 

[xchocoholic]

Fwiw, I don't think I have an at. But I have oi/pots.

If you have oi any exercises done while upright are going to be more challenging or impossible. I can immulate
riding a bike at a "normal" pace without any problem if I'm laying flat on my back. I don't do nearly as well upright .

Also, i don't know how many pwcs have these organ problems but I have a heart problem (left bundle
branch block), lung scarring (not thoroughly evaluated yet), and I had ataxia and white lesions on my brain
(gf diet appears to have eliminated these).
These will stop us too.

I had problems \ infections immediately after getting me/cfs in 1990. So, I'm guessing it's related. But since
many of my problems appear to have been from eating gluten, I can't tell for sure. Me/cfs sure kicked my gluten filled ass
tho ..

Tc .. X

 

[*GG*]

I have asked Dr. Keller a few things and am awaiting an answer. One of which is, can I do anything to increase my AT? I know healthy people can but I'm not sure about people with CFS. Does anyone here know?

Gamboa

I did this test about 2 years ago. I think I have gotten better since then, but have made many changes! Been on LDN for over 2.5 years and high dosages of Vitamin D, which are immune modulators. FYI

GG

PS Might not keep up on this thread, so feel free to message me.

 

[xrunner]

It seems that my AT is more than 20 below the healthy average yet if I stay below there I can do core exercises like pilates--lying down using machines--for an hour and not get PEM. (I do it only once a week in a class with healthies) The funny thing is that this doesn't seem to improve my aerobic ability at all!

As Heaps said, the aerobic system is up the creek!

Sushi

Hi Sushi,
If you manage to increase muscle mass (=increased fibres, increased mitochondria), I can't see why both aerobic and anaerobic shouldn't improve.
Perhaps it's the lying down which can take some pressure off the heart but limit its conditioning. But I doubt it because exercises like bench presses or leg presses where you lie down, (not sure what machines you use) can certainly give an uplift.

 

[xrunner]

I have asked Dr. Keller a few things and am awaiting an answer. One of which is, can I do anything to increase my AT? I know healthy people can but I'm not sure about people with CFS. Does anyone here know?

Gamboa

Hi Gamboa,
In my case I had to get to a point where I wouldn't crash easily. From there things become a little more normal and I again started to experience a sense of wellbeing after exercise. But I had to move very slowly and gradually and it took several months.
Instead when I was unwell, I tried to maintain or slow down the deconditioning and loss of muscle mass but I never succeeded. Any form of exercise, no matter how light, would set me back.
Hope you find a way, though.

 

[Sushi]

Hi Sushi,
If you manage to increase muscle mass (=increased fibres, increased mitochondria), I can't see why both aerobic and anaerobic shouldn't improve.
Perhaps it's the lying down which can take some pressure off the heart but limit its conditioning. But I doubt it because exercises like bench presses or leg presses where you lie down, (not sure what machines you use) can certainly give an uplift.

The pilates machines are very ergonomic weighted machines that let you do pilates with the assistance of weights. I have increased muscle mass and certainly strength anaerobic exercise, but aerobic remains a problem.

Sushi

P.S. below is a photo of my pilates studio--http://www.momentumstudio.com/studio/studiotourmore/100/ to give an idea of the machines.

 

[xrunner]

I've never seen any of those machines...I assumed that just by gaining a bit of muscle mass then all else would follow. This has been my experience particularly with leg muscles, but there may be other variables (no idea) involved.

 

[Wonko]

Hi Sushi,
If you manage to increase muscle mass (=increased fibres, increased mitochondria), I can't see why both aerobic and anaerobic shouldn't improve..

In my experience this isnt the case, it might only be coincidence but whilst I got a lot stronger, and in some very limited respects fitter, my ability to do things like walking diminished markedly over the period where I was training consistently (or as consistently as ME allows - which isnt very).

This doesnt mean I dont think there is a balance that can be struck, there was a significant period where simply having the extra strength vastly more than compensated for aerobic problems, it's just that I havent found it yet.

That said the way I was heading the few years before I started training I believed (and still do) that I would have been in a wheelchair within another year, the avoidance of which was one of the main reasons I started training. I'm no longer bedbound during crashes, I'm weak as a nearly dead kitten but I can still function enough, after a fashion, to physically survive independantly, prior to training I couldnt. It's a very delicate balance, the trick seems to be knowing when to quit, something I'm not good at, apart from in hindsight.

Of course training does nothing positive for cognative/neuro issues, it can even make them worse due to the resources it consumes no longer being avilable for things like figuring out how a sock works.

 

[Gamboa]

Yesterday I finally bought a heart rate monitor. I set the upper limit at 101 BPM at which point, according to my tests in Ithaca, is my anaerobic threshold. I then proceeded to do my normal activities-normal, that is, for days that I feel quite well. I walked the dog and did some weeding in the garden. To my surprise my monitor beeped at least ten times in a few hours to show that I had hit my AT. I couldn't believe it since I didn't feel like I was doing very much. Plus these are activities that I do quite often. At the beginning of my dog walk is a slight hill, one that I walk up every day. I wasn't even at the top and the alarm was ringing!

This would explain why I so often get exhausted and have to go to bed after walking, gardening and housework. The fact that I have been doing these things for years and push myself all the time shows that I haven't been able to raise my AT. Or, I suppose I have and it was much lower years ago, but I doubt it. I think by pushing myself I am making my AT worse, the opposite of healthy people. People are always saying to me that doesn't mild exercise such as dog walking and gardening make me feel better. Now I know why it doesn't (or at least one of the reasons). I can now explain to people why I don't feel better.

Gamboa

 

[Gamboa]

I should add to my post above that one thing that seemed to making my heart pump faster was standing up from a sitting position. When weeding I try to squat or kneel. The action of standing up set my heart pumping and caused me to reach anaerobic threshold. I have to investigate this. Is this POTS I wonder?

Gamboa

 

[Sushi]

Heart monitors are so helpful! We just don't guess the things that raise our heart rate without this kind of feedback.

Sushi

 

[taniaaust1]

I just brought 2 heart rate monitors watch things from ebay (just cheap ones.. 2 as I want to compare how they read). One was only $1 so who knows if it will work or not ..but oh well interesting to see.
I may get good one which has an alarm which goes off when certain rate gets reached some time in future.

(I just currently want to know if those things can handle my heart rate fluctuations okay without consistantly faulting when Im standing like even good BP/heart rate monitors do on me).

 

[Sherlock]

Heart monitors are so helpful! We just don't guess the things that raise our heart rate without this kind of feedback.

I'd used the alarms on a heart rate monitor for a short period, but they drove me nuts and so I turned them off.But I think you're exactly right, in that a HRM is very valuable at the beginning until you get schooled in how one's heart rate reacts to various activities. After some exposure and lots of paying-attention, it then becomes second nature.

But one other thing: when the battery in my Polar died, I discovered that they had designed the thing so that you can't change the battery yourself. You have to ship it to them and pay ~ $14US for them to do it. That seemed devious to me so that's when I just stopped using my HRM.

 

[shannah]

Hi Sherlock,

Does your HRM not have some tiny fasteners on the back of it that look like you would need a tiny Allen wrench or something similar?

My Polar FT1 says the same thing but I've found that a tiny screwdriver for eye glasses that are available in dollar stores opens it nicely. Reseals fine too. I change mine probably every 4-6 months or so.

 

[Sherlock]

Hi Sherlock,

Does your HRM not have some tiny fasteners on the back of it that look like you would need a tiny Allen wrench or something similar?

My Polar FT1 says the same thing but I've found that a tiny screwdriver for eye glasses that are available in dollar stores opens it nicely. Reseals fine too. I change mine probably every 4-6 months or so.

Hi, Shannah. Mine is the FS1. After I remove the four tiny screws, the back is still held in place by special (and thick) protuberances that are a molded part of the band. And it is seemingly impossible to remove the watchband pins without a special tool.

It looks to me as if Polar deliberately designed it that way to keep owners from changing their own batteries. It seems that from your (more recent) model, they don't use that trick anymore Thanks. Maybe one day I'll use an X-acto knife to cut away the plastic that is blocking me.

The whole thing reminds me of how most printer manufacturers soak their customers on the ink refills.

 

[taniaaust1]

With teh Polar ones, Ive heard that if one has changed the batteries oneself, that they view that as tampering with it and if it then they wont refund or replace or anything goes wrong with it while still in the warantee period.

 

[Sherlock]

On the theory that for some PWC, PEM is caused mainly by lactic acid buildup: has anyone experimented with taking ordinary sodium bicarbonate to counter the lactic acid?

 

[Sherlock]

I didn't realize so many of the things that I was doing regularly was above my AT. No wonder I am crashing all the time! I love to garden and any time I feel well I go out and garden, often doing heavy work such as digging. I also walk my dog often for over half an hour at a fast pace. Sometimes these things cause me no problem and other times I have to go to bed. I'll often crash for over a week at a time and be unable to do anything.

Hi, wouldn't being out of breath be the best indication? Or am I wrong about that?