Provoking Herx as diagnostic tool

[Aurelius]

Giving the difficulty of diagnosing Lyme disease and related co-infections would it not be possible to use a supplement which is known to cause herxheimer reactions in lyme patients as a diagnostic tool?

In many books about lyme I came across Byron White Formulars for example, which are used as treatment but also causing herx at the beginning. I have heard from other supplements as well (was it ALA?).

Would that not be helpful in diagnosing (at least for many people)? What are your thoughts?

 

[uglevod]

Minocycline 25..50mg every 2..3 days could be enough.

 

[Aurelius]

Thank you, but personally I would prefer to not use antibiotics while trying to figure out if contaminated with lyme and thus needing antibiotics in the first place.

 

[Celandine]

I guess I'd always wonder if my reaction was a hero or just another kind of bad reaction. How would you ever know? My daughter reacts negatively to cinnamon and that's antimicrobial, but I don't feel like that tells me anything definitive.

 

[Celandine]

Okay. You know what I mean. Herx !!

 

[ukxmrv]

The problem is that you don't know if it is a herx or a bad reaction to a drug or a supplement that doesn't suit you

So many things make me feel bad and I've never got over any of these bad reactions and then had an improvement in symptoms.

It's been claimed before that x is causing me to herx but I am skeptical because nothing improves. If it was a die-off I'd expect an improvement in some symptoms one day.

This makes a herx impossible to prove in my case

 

[Mel9]

My first indication I had a Borrelia infection was feeling better in response to antibiotics.

Then, when my script was finished, feeling much worse immediately.

 

[gbells]

Giving the difficulty of diagnosing Lyme disease and related co-infections would it not be possible to use a supplement which is known to cause herxheimer reactions in lyme patients as a diagnostic tool?

In many books about lyme I came across Byron White Formulars for example, which are used as treatment but also causing herx at the beginning. I have heard from other supplements as well (was it ALA?).

Would that not be helpful in diagnosing (at least for many people)? What are your thoughts?

The Marshall protocol has a way to do this they call a therapeutic probe. No sun or vitamin D for 4 weeks. It induces immunosuppression and the bugs go crazy, inducing photophobia, noise sensitivity etc.

https://mpkb.org/home/starting/therapeutic_probe

 

[uglevod]

The Marshall protocol has a way to do this they call a therapeutic probe. No sun or vitamin D for 4 weeks. It induces immunosuppression and the bugs go crazy, inducing photophobia, noise sensitivity etc.

No, D25 "deficiency" leads to Th1 induction:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340987/
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2017/8608716/

And higher expression of TLR receptors:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18411217
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4694299/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074219/

So its not the bugs goes crazy - its the immune system becomes more sensible to them.

 

[uglevod]

My first indication I had a Borrelia infection was feeling better in response to antibiotics. Then, when my script was finished, feeling much worse immediately.

Because antibiotics are anti inflammatory drugs like steroids(indirect TLR receptors antagonists among other things). This is all well defined in scientific literature of the last decade.

For example minocycline induces TLR4 hypo-responsiveness(TLR4 is an endotoxin binding receptor): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2412862/

One can feel worse or better as a result of taking mino depending on which response(pro(killing bugs -> endotoxin release) or anti inflammatory) dominates.

 

[Mel9]

Because antibiotics are anti inflammatory drugs like steroids(indirect TLR receptors antagonists among other things). This is all well defined in scientific literature of the last decade.

For example minocycline induces TLR4 hypo-responsiveness(TLR4 is an endotoxin binding receptor): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2412862/

One can feel worse or better as a result of taking mino depending on which response(pro(killing bugs -> endotoxin release) or anti inflammatory) dominates.

Maybe
But alternatively, a chronic bacterial infection temporarily dampened down by the antibiotics.

 

[uglevod]

But alternatively, a chronic bacterial infection temporarily dampened down by the antibiotics.

I highly doubt it. Successful treatment of chronic infection with abx typically requires multi-year commitment, rotating different abx against built up resistance (which could happen very quickly), etc.

 

[gbells]

No, D25 "deficiency" leads to Th1 induction:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340987/
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2017/8608716/

And higher expression of TLR receptors:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18411217
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4694299/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074219/

So its not the bugs goes crazy - its the immune system becomes more sensible to them.

Same difference.

 

[tooth]

Hi @Aurelius.
I figured out I had severe bartonella by accidentally taking a high dose of Sida Acuta and having the mother of all herxes (Buhner recommends it in his Lyme book for nerve pain, I initially took it for that thinking it was just a nervine and not a strong antimicrobial), hadn't even heard of Bartonella until then, I would have never known otherwise.
Same for Artemia Annua for either a babesia, or chronic malaria infection I might have picked up travelling.

It's hard to tell sometimes though when you are feeling so crappy already and there's the possibility of having multiple infections, but those reactions were incredibly pronounced and would have never figured those out otherwise.

Can't comment on Lyme - I took Uncaria Rhyncophylla and felt better and noticed some improvements without a herx but cannot tolerate knotweed at all yet. Good luck.

 

[uglevod]

I figured out I had severe bartonella

https://neurosciencenews.com/bartonella-infection-schizophrenia-10915/

 

[tooth]

@uglevod - thanks - after several years of being insane I lucked out this month on a neurologist "obsessed by pseudo-psychiatric symptoms". Haven't mentioned bartonella etc yet, as it's on the national health service and I'm in absolutely no position to look a gift horse in the mouth, but expect I'll have to come clean before they pump me full of immunosuppressants.
I tend towards autism rather than schizophrenia, but schizophrenia runs in the family so always a worry.

 

[Garz]

I also experience severe herxes from any one of a number of anti-microbial herbs
eg
sida acuta
mahonia aquafolium root ( berberine containing herb)
teasel root
etc

the problem is all of these herbs ( and most substances you could try ) are broad-spectrum in their antibacterial action.

many are also have antifungal properties

also, herbs, in general, contain a wide array of chemicals rather than a single refined substance - many of these are active in various ways in the body and any one person could have a reaction to any one of these active substances that presents much like a herx.

for instance, they could increase or decrease the permeability of the gut - changing symptoms through that mechanism

This means that, if a substance did provoke a herx like reaction, this could potentially be due to a whole array of potential mechanisms, making the picture cloudy at best
mechanisms may include:
1, killing unidentified pathogenic bacteria infecting the body systemically
2, killing unidentified pathogenic bacteria in some localized niche in the body (not a systemic infection)
3, killing normal commensal gut bacteria and triggering immune reactions and symptoms in response to their LPS by-products and fragments - eg especially in persons with increased gut permeability
4, killing normal or overgrown fungal organisms in the gut - and thereby releasing toxins/fragments that trigger immune reactions etc.
5, by increasing gut permeability - allowing bacteria, and bacterial by-products to enter the body
6, by some other direct reaction to the active substances or their metabolized by-products in persons who are sensitive ( many in the Lyme community)
etc

of these, I suspect the reaction to killing commensal organisms is the most common one as a high percentage as something like 20% of "healthy persons" are found to have conditions such as SIBO and Leaky gut ( according to the scientific papers). The proportion of chronically sick people with a hyperpermeable gut membrane is likely to be higher than that - leading to a high false-positive rate.

all this makes interpreting a herx type trial rather difficult in my view:

It may, however, be useful in the context of several other tests via different methods to help build a better picture