Preliminary news from Lipkin & co

Marco

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CFSUM1 was identified as partially derivatised pyroglutamic acid, being the isobutyl ester without formation of a HFB derivative. Both CFSUM1 and CFSUM2 are artefacts of the sample preparation procedure and previously reported quantitative abnormalities of CFSUM1 and CFSUM2 in urine from patients with ME/CFS are also artefactual. Pyroglutamic acid may be of primarily dietary origin.

Bolds added. Are they saying that this pyroglutamic acid is not a naturally occuring metabolite but at the same time may be of dietary origin?

ETA - If this metabolite wasn't an artefact it would be a very interesting one to find.
 
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Marco

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Bolds added. Are they saying that this pyroglutamic acid is not a naturally occuring metabolite but at the same time may be of dietary origin?

ETA - If this metabolite wasn't an artefact it would be a very interesting one to find.

Never mind. These metabolites were identified using a non-standard (and subsequently commercialised) method and could not be replicated using established and externally validated testing of a wide range of metabolites in urine and plasma.

But the results using established methods were interesting in their own right :

Urinary and plasma organic acids and amino acids in chronic fatigue syndrome
Mark G. Jones, Elizabeth Cooper, Saira Amjad, Stewart C. Goodwin, Jeffrey L. Barron, Ronald A. Chalmers

In conclusion, the present work has provided definitive data on the major plasma and urinary amino acids and urinary organic acids. None of the previously reported abnormalities in urinary amino acids or of organic acids [5,6] could be confirmed and many of the abnormalities reported may be ascribed to artefacts introduced by their use of non-standard methods [12].

Comparison between the groups studied (patients with ME/CFS, patients with depression, patients with rheumatoid arthritis and healthy control subjects) has shown some evidence for underlying inflammatory disease in patients with ME/CFS (histidine) and although other manifestations of this seen in patients with rheumatoid arthritis (asparagine and glutamate) were not evident in these patients, the exact mechanisms involved may differ and warrant further investigation.

The highly significant reduction in urinary hydroxyproline in patients with ME/CFS suggests, by analogy to similar observations in patients with fibromyalgia, reduced intramuscular collagen that may lower the threshold for muscle micro-injury and result in non-specific signs of muscle pathology. The present observations may reflect a similar basis in patients with ME/CFS.

A reduced threshold for muscle micro-injury in combination with active inflammatory disease may provide a basis for the fatigue and muscle pain that are the major symptoms in patients with ME/CFS and this may also warrant further investigation.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...7B659D8?doi=10.1.1.424.8119&rep=rep1&type=pdf
 

5150

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BTW, I think we shouldn't interpret this to mean that Lipkin has concluded that no pathogens are involved. I think it might mean that none of the specific pathogens that they searched for in early studies (e.g. herpes, EBV, etc) were detected in unusual patterns. But Lipkin is still searching for pathogens (viruses/bacteria/fungi) in the microbiome studies, and he's searching for antibodies to pathogens, and he may use his new-generation virus chip (VirCapSeq-VERT) which detects all known vertebrate viruses. I think I've read that he will use this, and I'd be surprised if he didn't, but I'm not sure where I read it.

I wish, he will use the chip soon ... before the seriously ill patients are gone.

The Zika virus likely to affect 4million people: must stop it fast, says CDC.
ME/CFS already affecting 4million people, but they go so slow; almost like not wanting to find answers.
 

Kati

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I wish, he will use the chip soon ... before the seriously ill patients are gone.

The Zika virus likely to affect 4million people: must stop it fast, says CDC.
ME/CFS already affecting 4million people, but they go so slow; almost like not wanting to find answers.
It has to do with percieved public health threat. Only one american giving birth to a microcephalic newborn due to Zika would make the news forever. It becomes political very quickly.

HIV is still very political. They are wanting a cure, a vaccine, and eradicated by 2030.
 

alex3619

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Good find. This study underscores the importance of publishing replication studies and studies that fail to meet primary endpoints.
I was very much concerned with these studies when they first came out. Two of many metabolites were shown to be methodological artefacts, but sadly other findings were ignored. This line of research should have continued but with corrections, but I think they might have had issues with funding after the two metabolic findings were disproved.
 

Seven7

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Only one American giving birth to a microcephalic newborn due to Zika would make the news forever.
I was thinking about this, we need to start paying TV ads and making public kids cases and very high impact cases. I think I am going to open a project to get CFS to TV. (educational) I am really thinking how to go about it. I will open a thread on it to get some volunteers and bounce Ideas.
 

MEMum

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It has to do with percieved public health threat. Only one american giving birth to a microcephalic newborn due to Zika would make the news forever. It becomes political very quickly.

HIV is still very political. They are wanting a cure, a vaccine, and eradicated by 2030.

Just read at my sister's that this has just happened don't have a link, but expect it is on current news threads,
 

WyattStukowski

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I was thinking about this, we need to start paying TV ads and making public kids cases and very high impact cases. I think I am going to open a project to get CFS to TV. (educational) I am really thinking how to go about it. I will open a thread on it to get some volunteers and bounce Ideas.

Good idea buddy...it will provide some education about this disease ..
 

lauluce

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there´s something I don´t understand; originally, Lipkin and Co. needed to raise 1 million dollars to perform their microbiome study, but now the website states that they need 5 million. Anybody knows what happened? did the study got bigger? I can´t find the answer anywhere
 

Bob

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RL_sparky

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Speaking of Dr. Lipkin I was recently looking at this old interview by Mindy Kitei and was curious if anyone has information on this study being mentioned:

"A paper coming out in the not to distant future about which I’m very encouraged has to do with RNA profiling host response in those with chronic fatigue syndrome and controls and these are individuals from the original NIH XMRV study."
Kitei: And what have you found?
":Lipkin: I can’t say yet. I’m not trying to be coy. We’re still in the process of analyzing it. It’s an enormous amount of information. When you start doing genetic sequencing, it can take months to analyze the data. It’s like building a house. So, at the end, when you’re slapping on the paint and polishing the floors, it goes very very quickly, but before that it just looks like chaos."

http://www.cfscentral.com/search?up...:00-04:00&max-results=4&start=4&by-date=false
 

BurnA

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@lauluce, yes the research proposals have become larger and more ambitious as Lipkin & Hornig have become ever more interested and involved in ME/CFS...

There's some more info, here:
http://microbediscovery.org/2015/08/27/kickstart-for-lipkin-and-hornigs-big-microbiome-study/

And the lower half of this page outlines some of the research that they are carrying out or have planned:
http://microbediscovery.org/

It really has grown -

microbediscovery said:
In total, that’s 125 patients and 125 matched controls (250 subjects), with three sample types, collected over four times in one year. That adds up to a thousand fecal samples, and the same of blood and saliva – three thousand samples in all. This is now a ‘huge’ study, and the costs have grown with it.

This thread is now almost 6months old .... How much longer do we have to wait ??
 
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