PQQ and Coq10 Hack

[cyberbuddha]

PQQ

I've tried this supplement several times over the years and didn't notice any improvement. I stumbled upon by accident another way to take it. I was experimenting with Coq10 which fuels mitochondria and noticed taking it daily tanked me out a bit. I stopped taking it one day and noticed after a couple of days my energy soared. So after experimenting with dose intervals i found a sweet spot which is taking a triple dose every 3 days (with dinner as there is a slight dip afterwards which i can sleep through).

Something about mitochondria in my body and others I've tried this with, requires more time than 24hrs to process things like these supplements. If you keep adding more in before they've processed the previous days fully, it doesn't work and can actually backfire.

I thought maybe this is the case with PQQ also so i did an experiment and yes, same thing. Taking 3 tablets of 20mg each every 3rd night lead to pretty amazing results. Took about a week almost to notice but when the effect took hold it was dramatic compared to what I'm used to. I decided to take both supplements together like this (on the same night) and it has been life changing.

Hope this helps. Plz share with others if it helps you also. My gf and some friends of mine also couldn't take the supplements daily and had the same effect when breaking it up into 3 day dosing so I'm sure there's others out there who are in the same boat. Give it a week to notice results and the first 24hrs might actually be slightly worse (but well worth it). Cheers guys

p.s I've also tried taking 6x dose of coq10 every 3 days and it too was pretty amazing. I discovered that by the conversion rate of Ubiquinol (which the body converts Coq10 into) that i found somewhere online saying it was 6:1. Ubiquinol upset my stomache i found Coq10 gentle.

 

[cyberbuddha]

I forgot to mention that coq10, pqq and ubiquinol if i took them daily, each gave me slight depression which was weird considering if i took them as mentioned above, the effects couldn't be more opposite.

 

[Hip]

So you say that taking 60 mg of PQQ plus Q10 (you did not specify the Q10 dose) once every three days has been "life changing" for your ME/CFS symptoms.

Whereas when you took these same supplements daily (20 mg of PQQ daily) you got no benefit, and even experienced some depression?

Can you say where you were on the ME/CFS scale of: very severe, severe, moderate, mild, remission before you started this once every three days protocol, and where you are now as a result of the protocol? Did the protocol move you up by one level on this scale?



By the way, some people with ME/CFS have trouble reading large blocks of text, so it's a good idea to split the text into paragraphs of around 3 to 5 lines. Thanks.

 

[cyberbuddha]

I was using the Swisse brand here in Australia 150mg and Life Extention 20mg PQQ. I've tried the Jarrow Formula PQQ and is just as good.

A decade ago my CFS was severe. I aquired a brain injury from an antidepressant a couple years later. Horrific to live with and i'll spare you details. But it was on my personal online studies that I came across the coq10 and how it helped mice with chemically induced brain injuries.

I would say in the last decade i was able to lift my symptoms from severe to moderate. A general constant heavyness and tiredness that doesn't pull me out of life completely. I can still function, but everything is a drag. I think my improvements came from diet and focusing on gut health. Tho just focusing on them was kind of like paddling through life in a boat that had some holes in it so was weighed down and constantly needing to bail water out of (diet, supplements etc). In my body, the mitochondria has been the missing piece. Dealing with it has taking me up another level for sure. Not just in energy but mood and focus. I'm always keen to get things done now around the house and with my small business. It's a nice change that I hope others can experience also. Cheers

 

[PatJ]

By the way, some people with ME/CFS have trouble reading large blocks of text, so it's a good idea to split the text into paragraphs of around 3 to 5 lines. Thanks.

I've edited the post to add paragraphs.

 

[Hip]

I would say in the last decade i was able to lift my symptoms from severe to moderate.

That great; though I was wondering how much this antioxidant protocol described in this thread has improved you ME/CFS.

If it did not produce a full 1 step improvement on the scale, did it perhaps create a half step, or quarter step improvement?

 

[Archie]

I been reading details about CoQ10 and it"s bioavailibity . It look"s like there can be huge differences in different Q10 ubiquinone supplemets absorbtion to plasma, yet there might be also another thing , how Q10 can or can not enter to mitochondria from plasma...there might be be some differences on that also between different supplements.

The basic Q10 crystal is yellow and not absorbed good, it requires allways some carrier delivery system , and that's where there can be big differences between supplement brands . Also the structure of the crystal has effects to absorbtion if i did understand right.

Not long ago i buyed cheap Q10 supplement , and i thought it's weird there was not much any effect on 300mg dosage/day, i then taked even more and start feel something....but after reading about the Q10 i do have a feeling that it is waste of money to buy that Q10 supplement becouse of not good absorbtion.

One of the good Q10 supplements might be Bio-Quinone Active CoQ10 GOLD , also known as Myoqinon

https://www.pharmanord.com/coq10-absorption

So wanted to adress the importance of having good Q10 supplement and i think there might be need of start with quite big loading dosages first also for first 1-2 month.

I have read that some websites mention that it would be cood to cycle PQQ , it might be true, i just started with 40mg/day , and i might try the every 3 day also that cyberbudha discovered, i will look how this daily go with me first.

I am going to try this liposomal Q10 :

https://www.actinovo.com/en/product...l-coq10-ubiquinone-ubidecarenone-coenzyme-q10

 

[Hip]

I been reading details about CoQ10 and it"s bioavailibity . It look"s like there can be huge differences in different Q10 ubiquinone supplemets absorbtion to plasma

The article you linked to, about the claimed superior bioavailability of the Myoqinon brand of Q10, is written by the manufacturer Pharma Nord. And the 2019 study the article refers to was also funded by this manufacturer.

In addition Pharma Nord supplied and prepared all the Q10 formations that were tested in the 2019 study. Pharma Nord did not test their Myoqinon product against other commercially available products, but tested it against Q10 formations that Pharma Nord themselves created. See this extract from the study:

Two formulations are indicated by the trade name (Pharma Nord); the other five are identified by preparation codes since they are not commercialized and were prepared also by Pharma Nord only for this study.

So obviously Pharma Nord would be unlikely to test any Q10 formulations or Q10 products that might be better than their Myoqinon Q10.

The 2019 study showed that Myoqinon Q10 is much better absorbed that the other formulations tested — see the graph below from the study, which shows the blood levels of Q10 over time after various Q10 supplements are consumed.

But as I said, all these other Q10 formulations tested in the study were created and supplied by Pharma Nord.

And even if Pharma Nord's Myoqinon Q10 were more bioavailable than other Q10 brands, Myoqinon is a very expensive form of Q10, with Pharma Nord Bio-Active Q10 100 mg x 150 costing £82 on Amazon.

Whereas yesterday I bought a Nutravita Q10 product 200 mg x 120 for £16 on Amazon, which is about 8 times cheaper gram for gram.


So unless Pharma Nord's products have at least 8 times better bioavailability than cheaper brands, they would not be worth the extra money.



Note that this 2010 review study of Q10 bioavailability concludes that:

it appears that some studies have high intersubject variance, which means a percentage of the population will not experience the improvement in bioavailability. Improving the standards of reporting the bioavailability of poorly absorbed supplements such as CoQ10 is recommended to help clinicians and consumers decide whether or not a product is likely to be effective.

In other words, there is a large difference from person to person in terms of how much Q10 is absorbed, so if you only study a small set of subjects, this can distort results.

And this review study points out the need for better standards of reporting of Q10 bioavailability, so that consumers can decide whether a Q10 product is worth buying. At the moment, we do not appear to have sufficient information to decide whether a more expensive Q10 product is worth the money.


By the way, Q10 being a fat soluble compound is absorbed faster if taken with a meal.

 

[Archie]

Well i skipped reading the full details in the studys, so was not aware that all versions were indeed made by pharma nord. I am pretty sure the cheap Q10 i just buyed dont much do it`s job as should. Anyone dare to to buy
Bio-Quinone Active CoQ10 GOLD/ Myoqinon and do Empirical research ?

Thanks Hip for pointing out the details . Once i get the liposomal Q10 and test it i will get report my gut feeling about it.

Yes i also think taking Q10 should be with meals.

I think i taked near 1000mg of the Q10 today, that sounds too much but 300 did not much help so...

 

[Hip]

Well i skipped reading the full details in the studys, so was not aware that all versions were indeed made by pharma nord.

I think that's what Pharma Nord are hoping, that 99% of people will just accept the results of their study without actually reading it. Then they can use this study as a deceptive marketing tool.

But in fact the Pharma Nord study provides no evidence that their expensive product is any better than cheaper commercially available products, because they did not compare it to any commercial products.



By the way, one place where you can get really good deals on Q10 bulk powder is www.aliexpress.com. I've bought quite a bit of Q10 from sellers on AliExpress.

For example, at the moment they have 100 grams of Q10 powder for £30. That's the equivalent of 500 x 200 mg capsules.

 

[Archie]

Aliexpress do look cheap , but should it somehow be mixed with lipids or oil before consume ?

 

[Hip]

Aliexpress do look cheap , but should it somehow be mixed with lipids or oil before consume ?

Q10 is insoluble in water, but soluble in fats, so it will likely be absorbed more quickly if taken with a main meal, which usually includes fat.

I guess you could dissolve the Q10 powder in olive oil or cooking oil if you wanted to be sure, so that every tablespoon of oil delivers say 200 mg of Q10 (or whatever dose you require).


The other consideration is whether you buy the more expensive ubiquinol rather than the ubiquinone form of Q10. In older men, this study found that ubiquinol is superior.



You can also consider drinking grapefruit juice with Q10, as the psoralen in the juice increases the absorption of Q10 into cells. See this post.

 

[MariaMagdalena]

Anyone recommend a less expensive, but still efficacious form of CoQ10 in the US? The above link is only available in the UK (unless I ship it, defeating the purpose). I'm currently taking 200 mg of Terranics brand that has Bioperine in it to enhance absorption. I don't notice any improvement from it, though I've only been taking it for a month.

Where should one look for the most improvement from this supp? Fatigue, brain fog, or both?

 

[MariaMagdalena]

Also, thank you @Hip for checking on that research angle from that supp company. I do have a medical education and background but my brain can't deal with technical info anymore.

 

[raghav]

I have tried various pharmaceutical brands of Co Q10. But many did not work and when I analysed why it was like that I found those which combined CoQ10 with Omega 3 fatty acids were the ones which worked.

 

[Archie]

I will try the grapefruit juice method , that was good tip , and might add some omega 3 too .

I think Q10 should help with both fatigue and brain fog , if it is absorbed. I feel that if take Q10 supplement with 100-300mg and cant notice improvement , it might not be good Q10 supplement, not much absorbed from it.

There seems to be a temperatur factor also with Q10 absoption

"One of the major challenges when making Q10 supplements is dealing with the low absorption of exogenous Q10 in the digestive tract. Unprocessed Q10 is made up of crystals that need to be broken down into individual molecules before they can be absorbed. As these crystals melt only at 48 degrees Celsius or above, it is obvious that they do not dissolve at body temperature. Each Q10 molecule is also quite large and needs to be absorbed with fat.
This is why you will get low bioavailability in Q10 products made of unprocessed crystals as only very little of the crystalline Q10 will be absorbed. This is also probably a major reason why we see such a large difference in price in different Q10 products as the high-cost processing of the Q10 raw material may vary considerably."


http://www.q10qh.com/finding-the-best-quality-q10

https://www.q10facts.com/index.php/making-a-good-coenzyme-q10-supplement-3/#comment-195

https://www.q10facts.com/index.php/all-posts-2/

The www.q10facts.com site look`s like being a pharma nord support site ? so not sure what to believe .

48 degrees Celsius/ 118.4 °Fahrenheit is quite high


But the another company who make MitoQ claims : " CoQ10 does not easily pass through the mitochondrial double membrane "

https://www.mitoq.com/blog/blog/not-purchase-another-coq10-supplement-without-reading

So i would really like to know if the normal Q10 cant much even enter the mitochondria , if product X do get absorb to plasma, but cant then really get absorbed to mitochondria it would not much help then would it .

 

[Archie]

After looking the price tag of MitoQ , i think they will not take my money .

But how about another method, making your own Q10 in your body without the need of buying Q10 supplements ? Chlorophyll and Sun light to make more ATP ?

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/food-and-health/regenerate-coenzyme-q10-naturally/

https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/11/13/how-to-make-your-own-coq10/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24198392/

https://blog.bioimmersion.com/energize-with-the-greenest-chlorella/

https://aliveholistichealth.ca/2018/02/21/how-to-get-coq10-for-fertility-without-supplementing/


Time to go eat more greens and have some sun ? There is a problem with getting sun enough in some Countrys in Winter time, I wonder could vitamin D lamp or regular Tanning Solarium Lamp or Led Red Light Therapy Lamp have effect to produce Q10



Anyone have tested the Chlorophyll and Sun light effect on energy levels ?

 

[Hip]

http://www.q10qh.com/finding-the-best-quality-q10

An interesting comment from that website:

Question: Are there any areas in which ubiquinol would be preferable over ubiquinone?
Answer: No, well, maybe just one: therapeutic mega dosages

Health professionals using ubiquinol in their work can gain an advantage when they need to use extraordinarily high Q10 dosages. This is because the blood levels of ubiquinol will continue to rise with increasing dosages in contrast to using ubiquinone in which the blood levels of Q10 will eventually begin to flatten out with increasing dosage.

Source: http://www.q10qh.com/choosing-q10

So it sounds like if you want to try megadose Q10, you really need to use the ubiquinol form, not the more common and cheaper ubiquinone form.


One forum member found that a massive 2400 mg Q10 single dose completely obliterated her PEM (see the PEM Busters thread). However, I don't think many others got this same benefit.

But maybe they would if they used the ubiquinol form, which is better for megadose purposes.

 

[Archie]

Yes it sounds like for getting good anti-Post-Exertional Malaise ubiquinol would be the preferred choice. Another interesting comment from that same page :

"Ubiquinone from food and supplements will be activated (chemical term: will be reduced) as it passes the intestinal wall, and then the active Q10 will be enclosed in lipid particles from the food, and the Q10 will be absorbed and will pass into the lymphatic system and will head out into the blood.

The rule is that, if you can absorb fat, you can also absorb Q10 dissolved in fat.

Some people might have diminished uptake because of liver disease, pancreatic disease (diabetes), irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis and other disorders that impair digestion; moreover, patients who have undergone surgery in the digestive tract may experience a diminished fat absorption from the gut"

So if take Q10 that is allready inside lipids ( liposomal form Q10 or ubiquinol ) it might be generally better way to get it to the lymphatic system/ blood , specially if have digestive problems .


There is a study which mention 2 Q10 products that i have newer even hear Greenspeed and Q10 Revolution

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/dabc/92da485738d11b7568dc7eb746f77e991b89.pdf

And from same authors another paper :

https://crimsonpublishers.com/acam/pdf/ACAM.000531.pdf

But both of those seem to be extremely expensives, alot more than MitoQ , so not a choice for anyone really if dont happen to be rich . Noticed that both formulations have d-ribose in it . It seems like there is a synergy relations with Q10 and D-Ribose and also with L-carnitine and magnesium .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19284182

https://heartmdinstitute.com/diet-nutrition/the-awesome-foursome/

 

[pamojja]

As already mentioned, due to many factors absorbtion of ubiquinone or ubiquinol can be very individual, and therefore no hard and fast rule which absorbs better.

In my case I found above 160 mg/d of ubiquinone ceased very painful angina-like chest pains (from stress; pysical or mental), half the dose of ubiquinol had the same effect. So for me the higher price for ubiquinol is justified, if the price is only 1.5 times higher than simple CoQ10. However, taking CoQ10 in its different forms against the chest pain in my case seem to have been habit forming. Did I expereince these chest pains only with stress before, now the pains were back always days after dropping below my effictive itake of CQ10s.

I took in average 110 mg/d of ubiquinone and 50 mg/d of ubiquinol consistently for the last 10 years. Total serum CoQ10 in 2015 tested 3.31 (above 3.5 allegedly therapeutic for hearth falure, which I don't have), and in 2018 6.95 (normal range is 0.8 - 1,4 µg/ml). Due to this very high serum level I decreased the dose somewhat below what's usually effictive for my chest pains. This time it took not days but months I had to increase the dose again.

Therefore, too individual an response to conclude anything from. I took it with all the synergistics or without, dry powder or suspented in oil - for me the milligram dose of 160 CoQ10 or 80 mg of ubiqunol always remained the main determinant of effectiveness.