Interesting thoughts alex - I seem to remember (it is documented somewhere) the deep sleep cycle is particularly affected. It was borne out in my case when raising low Gabapentin given for pain relief I was allowed to raise to full levels indicated. It resulted in a period (? two - three weeks) of very deep sleeps rising only to go to the bathroom or eat lightly. Winding it down I just felt so much better afterwards - does this restoration (not just light sleeping) hold some key in healing processes one has to wonder.
post polio fatigue Vs CFS/ME
- Thread starter heapsreal
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This has been something I've been interested in as well. I read somewhere, ages ago, that there were/are something like 72 polio viruses out there and that while the paralysing version has been vaccinated away the others are there and one or more of them may have "filled the gap" so to speak.
The beginning of my illness was my right leg going dead and losing a lot of the function of my right arm and hand. Even in semi-remisson my leg has never worked. So could there be something polioesque going on? I dunno.
Sleep is certainly a factor. I think research showed that people with chronic pain conditions tended to lack Delta sleep, which is the deep cycle the body uses for healing itself. No real delta sleep means lactic acid isn't flushed out properly and so we hurt like hell.
I want to read more on this sort of thing. I'm sure it's part of the big picture.
(BTW, just as an aside, I did voluntary work in a Cheshire Home before my nurse training and there were two people in iron lungs. I can't criticise the vaccine too much when I remember them.)
The beginning of my illness was my right leg going dead and losing a lot of the function of my right arm and hand. Even in semi-remisson my leg has never worked. So could there be something polioesque going on? I dunno.
Sleep is certainly a factor. I think research showed that people with chronic pain conditions tended to lack Delta sleep, which is the deep cycle the body uses for healing itself. No real delta sleep means lactic acid isn't flushed out properly and so we hurt like hell.
I want to read more on this sort of thing. I'm sure it's part of the big picture.
(BTW, just as an aside, I did voluntary work in a Cheshire Home before my nurse training and there were two people in iron lungs. I can't criticise the vaccine too much when I remember them.)
beaverfury
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Im not 100% on the real science of this but it is said that antidepressants help neurogenisis so potentially could help regenerating our neurons, but like i said im not sure on the science as i dont fully trust the psychobabblers who are in bed with bigpharma that are promoting this theory.[/quote] Heapsreal
I hadnt thought of that. Just implicitly believed in the notion of neurogenesis. But, yeah, that would increase sales.
Wonder who does fund this research?
I hadnt thought of that. Just implicitly believed in the notion of neurogenesis. But, yeah, that would increase sales.
Wonder who does fund this research?
alex3619
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I am aware there are other non-polio viruses that may cause polio. One, iirc, is the Coxsackie virus family. We tend to forget that viruses have close cousins, and that these may have similar effects. One of the issues with the Coxsackie virus, again if I recall correctly (its been a long time since I read this stuff) is that its only been shown in animal models - they were able to induce polio using Coxsackie virus. I wish I could recall the details.
Paralytic polio was a subgroup of polio patients.
Paralytic polio was a subgroup of polio patients.
alex3619 From my addled and foggy memory I believe the ME outbreak in northern Scotland, the Hebrides I think, was Coxsackie.
My question on all this would be, how can we ever know when no one gets tested for the obvious stuff? It's so rare to hear of someone dx with ME after bloods or spinal fluid come back with the nasties.
Baring in mind how many polio viruses and polio-like viruses are out there do the tests even exist for half of them?
On the antidepres theme. I am on Amitriptilene for pain, which has worked pretty well. I can't see this is a psychobabblers and big pharma thing simply because Ami is one of the old drugs and is cheap and cheerful. It works for a lot of people I know with pain conditions including chronic migraine.
BUT, it isn't used as an antidepressant much these days as newer drugs are on the market. So maybe they want new uses for old drugs without having to spend the money testing them??? I don't know, and I wouldn't put anything past them, but I'm glad the thing works for me taking my pain from unbearable to just annoying.
My question on all this would be, how can we ever know when no one gets tested for the obvious stuff? It's so rare to hear of someone dx with ME after bloods or spinal fluid come back with the nasties.
Baring in mind how many polio viruses and polio-like viruses are out there do the tests even exist for half of them?
On the antidepres theme. I am on Amitriptilene for pain, which has worked pretty well. I can't see this is a psychobabblers and big pharma thing simply because Ami is one of the old drugs and is cheap and cheerful. It works for a lot of people I know with pain conditions including chronic migraine.
BUT, it isn't used as an antidepressant much these days as newer drugs are on the market. So maybe they want new uses for old drugs without having to spend the money testing them??? I don't know, and I wouldn't put anything past them, but I'm glad the thing works for me taking my pain from unbearable to just annoying.
alex3619
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Coxsackie viruses are one of the leading suspect virus families for ME, even more than EBV perhaps. Enterviruses and herpes viruses are right up their on the suspect list. The primary question though is whether they are causal or opportunistic as they occur when the immune system is crashed. Nobody has yet proven the case, but nobody has disproven it either - the evidence is so very strong.
I found the comment on Amitriptilene interesting. No pharma company, big or small, has money for research on old drugs. Better to tweak the drug, repatent, do more research, then sell it as a new drug - its then covered under patent law.
Bye, Alex
I found the comment on Amitriptilene interesting. No pharma company, big or small, has money for research on old drugs. Better to tweak the drug, repatent, do more research, then sell it as a new drug - its then covered under patent law.
Bye, Alex
heapsreal
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Hi Alex, so do u think the antioxidants are causing initial problems with sleep etc?
alex3619
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Hi heapsreal, I think that my sleep systems are out of whack due to oxidative stress, however I am adapted to them. So when that is decreased, the brain goes nuts, and sleep becomes a problem. This is a guess however. If its right, then pulse dosing or long term incremental dosing is the way forward, is my current suspicion. Bye, Alex
Post polio
When I was 11 years of age (1948), I was bedridden for a month or more, and missed much schooling. My parents just treated me for general children’s illness and I didn’t see a doctor. I remember as most children’s illnesses in those days we were always sick feeling general discomfort or uneasiness, headache, sore throat, a fever, and normal vomiting. But, this time my children’s illness was longer than normal. I am led to believe now that these symptoms I had as a child, at the time was a large epidemic of polio in my country, and that I was possible suffering from “subclinical polio infection”.
But, my illness still continued after I was able to return to outdoor life and school, I suffered a strange walking gait and stumbled more often than before, which could have been seen as “clinical poliomyelitis”, which appears it had some affect of my central nervous system, which I gather would be seen as non-paralytic even after recovery from a subclinical infection.
My doctor had asked me years ago if I had polio, because he said that I had similar symptoms to post polio, and that is when I began to research this with all other research on EHS, as the symptoms I have been suffering from at the time and prior to my diagnosis of ME (1984), CFS (1994), and FMS (2004) were: back pain or ache; diarrhoea; extreme tiredness and fatigue; headache; irritability; leg pain (calf muscles); muscle stiffness; muscle tenderness and spasm in any area of the body; neck pain and stiffness; neck pain; pain or stiffness of the back, arms, legs, and abdomen; fever; and vomiting.
In 2000, when I first became aware of my sensitivity to cell phones, and by 2007 it became worse as wireless technology began to flood the arena and proliferate the airways, I discovered that these symptoms of ME/CFS/FMS were similar to electro hypersensitivity (EHS) also referred to as radio/wireless sickness, but EHS is also affected by the electrical and magnetic radiation from of electro magnetic fields (EMF) of electrical appliances and devices before the introduction of cell phones in the late 1990s.
Therefore, when I go back in time, I guess the causation factor of my ME/CFS/FMS and IBS/BMS/EHS/EMS and MCS was possible the residue of my post-polio when I was 11 years of age, and was further aggravated by other causations factors, such as power lines; wireless; and possibly chemicals.
After having open-heart surgery and prescribed Statin drugs I developed muscle myopathy and my legs now tingle and burn all the time, even though I do have good blood circulation through the legs, again a possible side affect of post-polio and poor medical treatment.
I chew Melatonin that helps to produce the chemical needed for sleep. When I am restless from EMR and EMF I take ¼ of a Stilnox sleeping tablet, and when it’s extreme I get a good night’s sleep by taking ½ of a Stilnox.
My restlessness is caused by the wireless technology in my area that is 24/7, and since smart metres have been introduced my health has deteriorated even further.
My post-polio has caused me some physical bone structure of the legs, and required a hip implant.
I’ve also always wondered if my contact with polio as a child is also one of the reasons for my ME/CFS/FMS?
When I was 11 years of age (1948), I was bedridden for a month or more, and missed much schooling. My parents just treated me for general children’s illness and I didn’t see a doctor. I remember as most children’s illnesses in those days we were always sick feeling general discomfort or uneasiness, headache, sore throat, a fever, and normal vomiting. But, this time my children’s illness was longer than normal. I am led to believe now that these symptoms I had as a child, at the time was a large epidemic of polio in my country, and that I was possible suffering from “subclinical polio infection”.
But, my illness still continued after I was able to return to outdoor life and school, I suffered a strange walking gait and stumbled more often than before, which could have been seen as “clinical poliomyelitis”, which appears it had some affect of my central nervous system, which I gather would be seen as non-paralytic even after recovery from a subclinical infection.
My doctor had asked me years ago if I had polio, because he said that I had similar symptoms to post polio, and that is when I began to research this with all other research on EHS, as the symptoms I have been suffering from at the time and prior to my diagnosis of ME (1984), CFS (1994), and FMS (2004) were: back pain or ache; diarrhoea; extreme tiredness and fatigue; headache; irritability; leg pain (calf muscles); muscle stiffness; muscle tenderness and spasm in any area of the body; neck pain and stiffness; neck pain; pain or stiffness of the back, arms, legs, and abdomen; fever; and vomiting.
In 2000, when I first became aware of my sensitivity to cell phones, and by 2007 it became worse as wireless technology began to flood the arena and proliferate the airways, I discovered that these symptoms of ME/CFS/FMS were similar to electro hypersensitivity (EHS) also referred to as radio/wireless sickness, but EHS is also affected by the electrical and magnetic radiation from of electro magnetic fields (EMF) of electrical appliances and devices before the introduction of cell phones in the late 1990s.
Therefore, when I go back in time, I guess the causation factor of my ME/CFS/FMS and IBS/BMS/EHS/EMS and MCS was possible the residue of my post-polio when I was 11 years of age, and was further aggravated by other causations factors, such as power lines; wireless; and possibly chemicals.
After having open-heart surgery and prescribed Statin drugs I developed muscle myopathy and my legs now tingle and burn all the time, even though I do have good blood circulation through the legs, again a possible side affect of post-polio and poor medical treatment.
I chew Melatonin that helps to produce the chemical needed for sleep. When I am restless from EMR and EMF I take ¼ of a Stilnox sleeping tablet, and when it’s extreme I get a good night’s sleep by taking ½ of a Stilnox.
My restlessness is caused by the wireless technology in my area that is 24/7, and since smart metres have been introduced my health has deteriorated even further.
My post-polio has caused me some physical bone structure of the legs, and required a hip implant.
I’ve also always wondered if my contact with polio as a child is also one of the reasons for my ME/CFS/FMS?
Must say I'm intrigued with this research because polio symptoms were very much part of my own experience when ME at worst (could barely breathe for lack of muscular function). But I believe the expression of latent viruses (like the appearance of chicken pox) whilst the immune system has been thoroughly compromised. Symptoms listed here all very familiar.