Post-Bacterial vs Post-Viral?

[Blazer95]

I have searched the forums but I didnt find a thread like this so I thought about opening one.
I've seen lots and lots of informations and research about post-viral ME as if its the only form or etiology of ME we have.
But I do have post-bacterial ME/CFS after an incident what was likely an untreated bacterial sepsis from wich I could've died.
So TL;DR: My ME is post-bacterial and it seems to reveal some differences to the more commonly known post-viral ME.

So for example a Th1 Immune Response is mainly responsible for fighting of viruses and intracellular bacteria, while Th2 and Th17 is responsible for fighting extracellular bacteria, fungal infections and parasites. It seems that post-viral ME sufferers often have a Th1 deficiency while I have an Th2 and Th17 deficiency. I would like to try and sort these different etiologys because I believe there are differences between the post-bacterial and post-viral groups.

I am aware that ME also comes from other causes like car crashes, vaccines and other immune events but this post is only about infectious ME.

 

[Wishful]

I don't know what triggered my ME, but it's possible that it was a tetanus booster, so maybe that fits your bacterial category.

 

[Blazer95]

push

 

[Jyoti]

ME started for me directly following pneumonia. Was it bacterial? I think so, based on symptoms. Likely gram-negative organisms/bacteria that caused it. I will never know, but I do continue to have very high IgG titers for both chlamydia and mycoplasma pneumonias, so.....possibly.

 

[heapsreal]

Dr Garth Nicholson was popular in finding mycoplasma infections in many cfsme and gulf war patients. I recall that his studies showed the longer one had cfsme, the more chronic infections were present, both viral and bacterial. I guess over time, with poor immunity your likely to have more infections reactivate or catch new infections.

My cfsme onset was obviously viral with chickenpox, but I have had improvements in cfsme symptoms doing long courses of antibiotics like doxycycline.

Then there's lyme disease which can be several chronic bacterial infections. Not uncommon for lyme patients to also have reactivated ebv, cmv etc .

 

[Blazer95]

thanks @Jyoti and @heapsreal for your contributions!

 

[Jyoti]

My cfsme onset was obviously viral with chickenpox, but I have had improvements in cfsme symptoms doing long courses of antibiotics like doxycycline.

You have also had a lot (relatively) of success with antivirals, haven't you?

I recall that his studies showed the longer one had cfsme, the more chronic infections were present, both viral and bacterial. I guess over time, with poor immunity your likely to have more infections reactivate or catch new infections.

Yes. This makes sense. I have plenty of high viral titers as well, and my IgG subclass 3 is low. Sometimes it feels like the collapse of a dynamited building in slo-mo.

 

[heapsreal]

You have also had a lot (relatively) of success with antivirals, haven't you?

Yes, famvir. Possible cmv reactivation and reoccurring shingles.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

I feel like mine was triggered by both bacterial and viral infections. It started as viral common cold, then I made the idiotic decision to continue working without a sick leave, and at some point bacterial infection joined the fun (I am basing this on the fact, that my doctor prescribed antibiotics and they helped).
If you are sick- don't go to work, just stay in bed and rest. I ruined my life myself.

 

[Jyoti]

I ruined my life myself.

NO, no, no! You definitively did NOT. Please do not do that to yourself! If someone had told you: go back to work and you'll be sick the rest of your life? Maybe, but everyone goes to work when they are sick with a cold or something like. Most people would lose their jobs if they stayed home for every sniffle. You did something reasonable that others are doing all over the world right now without getting ME.

I think the thing we have to keep in mind is that It is almost certainly not one thing, one event, one illness. Much more likely is the notion (in my view) that there is some sort of genetic weakness and as we live, we prod and poke it, meeting the challenges of life, the various forms of stress/illness/injury we encounter. At some point, for some of us, the final straw is an infection. But how could we know that this cold or virus is THE last straw for our bodies?

Not to say that your advice to stay home and take care of yourself is not good advice. It is. But most people aren't likely to heed it, nor are they likely to get ME as a result.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

@Jyoti Thanks for your message, it means a lot to me.
We definitely live in a culture, where working while sick is encouraged. My boss literally said, that she'll work untill she's unconscious in an ambulance.
I also agree, that there might be something genetic going on.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I feel like mine was triggered by both bacterial and viral infections. It started as viral common cold, then I made the idiotic decision to continue working without a sick leave, and at some point bacterial infection joined the fun (I am basing this on the fact, that my doctor prescribed antibiotics and they helped).
If you are sick- don't go to work, just stay in bed and rest. I ruined my life myself.

This is what I suspect myself but throw mold into the infection party too. One happened, another piggy backed on, and another when my immune system was busy and weakened. Then one day the camels back just broke and everything was out of whack. But like someone else said this isn't all your fault. Take for example everyone I know around me and probably you too, if we lived like them we would crash and it's often besides the abnormality of "work yourself to death" culture nothing extreme. They straight out of work go to the gym, go out with friends and eat a bunch of unhealthy food that might put us under in 1 meal and be completely fine the next day save for an upset belly, maybe even drink a little with no major consequences, do all of the chores, and still just be more sleepy after a rougher day. I am in awe at what my coworkers do and consume daily with little consequences.

Here's a good one. The other day one of them got hungry midshift and just scarfed down a couple whole mini cheese calzones and got back to work, if I did that it would be the end of me for like a week. Then they were explain how later they were going to have some meat marinated in some those packaged spices with all the extra salt/additives, cocacola, and brown sugar. I was in shock, how could they consume that and still function at all? They still look at me like an alien every day when I tell them about my sensitivities and how eating during the day hurts me besides little nibbles of something plain and reduces my energy. This is how big the gap between people without conditions under this umbrella and healthy people really is, if you're still hanging on well enough then you're alright. No one just woke up one day and chose to be in a body like this and the way most people would need to live to get here would be treating themselves far worse than just working while sick, being exposed to a little extra of an allergen, eating too much food sometimes, or having a supplement their system didn't agree with.

 

[kushami]

@Blazer95 , I was just searching this, wondering what was different about viral infections, and your post here popped up. Very interesting about the different parts of the immune system fighting different pathogens.

I see some articles use the term “post-infectious” rather than “post-viral”.

 

[Blazer95]

bump

 

[Hip]

So for example a Th1 Immune Response is mainly responsible for fighting of viruses and intracellular bacteria, while Th2 and Th17 is responsible for fighting extracellular bacteria, fungal infections and parasites. It seems that post-viral ME sufferers often have a Th1 deficiency while I have an Th2 and Th17 deficiency. I

Regular bacteria can transform themselves into an intracellular form, known as an L-form, where they then live inside host cells as an intracellular infection. Bacteria change into L-forms to protect themselves from the immune response. And living inside host cells also largely protects bacteria from antibiotics.

So if someone had a widespread acute bacterial infection like sepsis, it could be that during this episode, many of the circulating bacteria converted to L-forms, and started living in cells.

Possibly in such cases, antibiotics which target intracellular bacterial infections might be worth looking into, such as azithromycin



L-forms are not to be confused with bacterial species which normally live as an intracellular infection, such as Chlamydia pneumoniae. Chlamydia pneumoniae has not choice but to live as an intracellular infection, and these type of bacteria are called obligate intracellular bacteria.