Positive response to oxycontin

hmnr asg

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Hi all,
So I had to take a single dose of oxycodone for an unrelated pain disorder that I have. Just a single 5 mg dose yesterday. The pill made me feel very sick and I thought I was going to throw up and pass out. I weathered the storm and after a few hours I felt better and just went to sleep.

Today I woke up and had a lot more energy than usual. I even went shopping and cooked. Obviously oxycodone is not a treatment and I will not try to get more pills ( I probably wouldn't be able to even if I tried given the fear doctors have about prescribing it ). But what does this mean ? I don't think my improvement is because of the pain killer properties since I'm feeling better the day after rather than the day of ( and oxycodone has a short half life). Not sure what conclusion to draw from this but if you have an idea please let me know. Maybe there's another medication that is not an opioid that has the same effects ?

Thank you !
 

hmnr asg

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I'm not sure either, but hydrocodone is the one thing that makes me feel almost normal for a short period of time. There's definitely something to opioids besides the obvious "high".
Thank you for your reply. One question : is there any diminishing returns if you keep taking it ? Or does it consistently improve your symptoms ?
I mean for example if you take benzos everyday they will just stop working. Do you get that with hydrocodone ?
 

crypt0cu1t

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Thank you for your reply. One question : is there any diminishing returns if you keep taking it ? Or does it consistently improve your symptoms ?
I mean for example if you take benzos everyday they will just stop working. Do you get that with hydrocodone ?
I've noticed that it starts to lose effectiveness depending on how often I take it. I usually take it only when I plan to do something for the day.

It doesn't cause a crash or anything either, it just simply allows me to function better for a couple hours and then puts me to sleep afterwards.
 

geraldt52

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Not sure what conclusion to draw from this but if you have an idea please let me know.
I'll take a shot at that...with full disclosure that I am just making this up, without much in the way of evidence, which, as near as I can tell, is what all the "CFS specialists" do all the time.

I think we feel terrible all the time because our body has wisely adjusted itself to protect us from whatever it is that causes/caused CFS. This "state" is our normal condition, unfortunately. There are any number of drugs that can disrupt this normal condition, but only temporarily until our bodies make another adjustment to compensate for the effects of the drug. I think that this entirely explains Jay Goldstein's protocol, and explains why it was always interesting, but largely useless (and probably dangerous).

I think people are playing Russian roulette using drugs and supplements without any real idea what is being treated, how, and why. I also think that a lot of test results that show low-normal this or high-normal that merely reflect an adjustment our body has made to protect us, and not something that needs to be "treated".

I know I did myself great harm in the past by experimenting, but to each his own. I do understand the desire to do something...but doing some things can be quite dangerous. It's easy to think you can't make yourself worse, but you surely can.
 
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I'll take a shot at that...with full disclosure that I am just making this up, without much in the way of evidence, which, as near as I can tell, is what all the "CFS specialists" do all the time.

I think we feel terrible all the time because our body has wisely adjusted itself to protect us from whatever it is that causes/caused CFS. This "state" is our normal condition, unfortunately. There are any number of drugs that can disrupt this normal condition, but only temporarily until our bodies make another adjustment to compensate for the effects of the drug. I think that this entirely explains Jay Goldstein's protocol, and explains why it was always interesting, but largely useless (and probably dangerous).

I think people are playing Russian roulette using drugs and supplements without any real idea what is being treated, how, and why. I also think that a lot of test results that show low-normal this or high-normal that merely reflect an adjustment our body has made to protect us, and not something that needs to be "treated".

I know I did myself great harm in the past by experimenting, but to each his own. I do understand the desire to do something...but doing some things can be quite dangerous. It's easy to think you can't make yourself worse, but you surely can.
Not to take anything might be an option when you're not very severe and can eat, sit or sth. Though I hear you when you say that we don't know what we are doing bc of the unknown etiology of the disease. But without treatments I always ended up in a state where I can't even communicate writing letters on a paper. So I think it's a decision everyone has to make: possible benefit vs possible harm.
That our bodies want to protect us is also only an unproven theory.
No criticism, just saying.
 

katabasis

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I have a couple ideas about how to explain your reaction, @hmnr asg. They are just speculation, but might also hint at some experiments you could do.

It's been established that most opioids have immunosuppressive properties. Oxycodone, however expresses weaker immunomodulatory properties than other opioids. Still, the cited studies claim that oxycodone reduces IL-6 production by T-cells, as well as T-cell/NK cell numbers, so the effect isn't negligible. It's unclear whether this effect would be significant enough to be noticeable after one dose, such as in your case. But if it were, it would implicate some usefulness in doing a cytokine panel or NK cell count in order to come up with a different, non-opioid treatment.

Another thing to consider is that oxycodone is an apparent TLR4 agonist. This receptor is involved in mediating opioid response, but is also activated by LPS in order to mediate inflammatory/immune response. I know a lot of people have seen success with using low dose naltrexone (LDN), which blocks TLR4 to reduce pain and other ME/CFS symptoms, and LDN is also useful for a number of autoimmune diseases. You mentioned you felt worse when you took the oxycodone, and then better the next day - perhaps by activating TLR4, oxycodone induced a degree of downregulation or some other kind of compensatory response that imitated TLR4 blockade once the drug wore off. LDN might be something to look into if you haven't already.

My final suggestion is less pharmacological than the others. I've noticed that when I'm in a ME/CFS crash, which causes a lot of pain, I am often compelled to writhe or move a little bit. This reaction to pain is not abnormal, but unfortunately it involves a degree of physical exertion which I feel may have a negative effect on my ME/CFS. Even when not to this degree, pain may induce muscle tension or perhaps even some kind of mental exertion, and you can see how these would also cause a vicious cycle for PEM. I don't know exactly what your ME/CFS and PEM is like, but perhaps the oxycodone, by forcibly inducing muscle relaxation and sedation, interrupted some kind of feedback loop between exertion and pain. If this were the case, then other, non-opioid sedatives might provide the same kind of effect - it might be worth trying something like cyclobenzaprine, tizanidine, or maybe one one of the GABAergics.
 

hmnr asg

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Not to take anything might be an option when you're not very severe and can eat, sit or sth. Though I hear you when you say that we don't know what we are doing bc of the unknown etiology of the disease. But without treatments I always ended up in a state where I can't even communicate writing letters on a paper. So I think it's a decision everyone has to make: possible benefit vs possible harm.
That our bodies want to protect us is also only an unproven theory.
No criticism, just saying.
I couldnt agree with you more. Everytime someone posts a message about a medication that might help there is a few people that come out and try to warn us about the dangers. I am not a child! I know how to use google, I know how to read the side effects! and these posts dont contribute anything to the conversation. Its very frustrating. And as you said, if you are severe you will have to take chances. I dont want to take medication, why would I if i were mild or healthy? :bang-head:
 
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hmnr asg

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My final suggestion is less pharmacological than the others. I've noticed that when I'm in a ME/CFS crash, which causes a lot of pain, I am often compelled to writhe or move a little bit. This reaction to pain is not abnormal, but unfortunately it involves a degree of physical exertion which I feel may have a negative effect on my ME/CFS. Even when not to this degree, pain may induce muscle tension or perhaps even some kind of mental exertion, and you can see how these would also cause a vicious cycle for PEM. I don't know exactly what your ME/CFS and PEM is like, but perhaps the oxycodone, by forcibly inducing muscle relaxation and sedation, interrupted some kind of feedback loop between exertion and pain. If this were the case, then other, non-opioid sedatives might provide the same kind of effect - it might be worth trying something like cyclobenzaprine, tizanidine, or maybe one one of the GABAergics.
Thank you for your informative post. This particular hypothesis might not be applicable to my case though. I know exactly what you mean by the physical exertion during a PEM. But I also take Lyrica which nicely takes care of this and induces a state of relaxation (it helps with the agitation and tired but wired feeling after a PEM). But that never gave me the boost that I got from oxy.
The other two hypotheses are interesting, I should look into the specifics. Maybe try an immunosuppressive to see what happens.

Thank you