Petition: Opposing MEGA

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
1 Will you publicly announce on behalf of yourself and the CMRC (via a Science Media Centre press release) your unequivocal understanding that the PACE trial outcome showed that exercise and CBT do not lead to recovery in ME patients, that the treatments do not work and can be harmful, that the biopsychosocial model of ME is unprovable and unproven, and that there is unequivocal evidence that ME is a biological illness that cannot be cured or significantly improved by psychological methods.

Calling for a public announcement "via a Science Media Centre press release".

Would that not serve to confer legitimacy upon the SMC's involvement in the CMRC?

I see no reason why anyone from the SMC should have had any initial or continuing involvement with the CMRC.
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
Calling for a public announcement "via a Science Media Centre press release".

Would that not serve to confer legitimacy upon the SMC's involvement in the CMRC?

I see no reason why anyone from the SMC should have had any initial or continuing involvement with the CMRC.

good point. I'll remove all reference to the SMC.

Golly this is a minefield. It's occurred to me that I shouldn't specify PR either. Just say I'll make his answer public.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
If you fancy signing, PM me with the name you want to be known by on the letter, so you don't have to reveal it publicly here if you don't want to.
Not sure I want to supply my real name to that lot. I wonder if there's another way to show support / agreement for the letter? Not another petition, obviously.
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
Should we start a new thread for communication to and from Holgate and the SMC?

Not sure I want to supply my real name to that lot. I wonder if there's another way to show support / agreement for the letter? Not another petition, obviously.

Good point, TiredSam. I wouldn't want to pressure anyone to reveal names. I'm past caring about that, and not living on state benefits that can be taken away since I'm a pensioner. I think I'll just send it in my name, but make it clear I've shared my letter in a public forum and I'll make his answer public.
 

batteredoldbook

Senior Member
Messages
147
Posted 30 minutes ago on AfME Facebook and website:

https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news/why-we-are-supporting-the-mega-research-project/

Why we are supporting the MEGA research project

November 22, 2016

Response to "Why we are supporting the MEGA research project" Action for ME Nov22/2016; #pwme ~550 words.

MEGA: I will not support CFS researchers who refuse to discuss CFS research.

I do not believe science and "patient engagement" is served when patients' questions are blocked. The continued joint silence over Pace gives me no confidence in the MEGA trial proposals.

People with M.E (pwme) have clamored for pure biological research. After so many years, MEGA promises much but is tarnished by the involvement of researchers who still believe that treating M.E as "fear avoidance behaviour" is appropriate (PDW, EC, PACE). One of these only, has left the project. As amply demonstrated by the fierce opposition within the OMEGA petition, many patients feel this is unacceptable. Invest in M.E has been true driver of UK biological research for many years and the CMRC needs to up it's game considerably to rival their efforts.

Big science isn't necessarily good science and researchers and charities should not simply chase funding. Before we drain research budgets we should ensure all involved agree on what makes good scientific methodology. And to be clear: we do not need new research to make huge progress: We can update NICE guidelines in the light of the intellectual collapse of PACE.

We can say that pwme and researchers should work together, but this relationship is already unbalanced. 12,000 pwme want the Pace trial removed. No-one at MEGA seems to be listening at all. If MEGA selects a patient panel from *only those who will not challenge pace* then it cannot ever be said to be fairly representative of M.E "patient values".

The promise of biological research is not enough. First and foremost, charities, researchers and pwme must demonstrate a commitment to the scientific method. This issue is not about BPS vs biological research it is about good vs bad science. People with ME need researchers who are able to make this judgement, researchers who are politically free enough to be able to openly discuss research results, past and future.

A biological whitewash will not clean up pace. The methodology must be addressed before we can move on. Simply put: "Those who cannot question the scientific validity of PACE should not determine the direction of future M.E research."

Where there is such polar disagreement over what makes good science and good treatment, the potential for harm here is immense. While Britain remains enthralled to the 'magical medicine' of CBT/GET, severely ill M.E patients must be protected from harmful contact.

Without a foundation of care and of science: you are not doing medicine. Many are happy to hammer out face-saving measures, but we cannot allow another generation of young people with M.E to pay for the choices made by this generation of doctors. We cannot carry you forever: We are in pain. We need to rest.

I have been ill for 30 years, and I want good quality, open, biomedical research into M.E. I cannot support MEGA, and by association, Action for M.E; The ME Association; ME Research UK; AYME and the CMRC. Your proposals turn a blind eye to Pace and all that we can and must learn from it. This is not how good science starts. This is not how good science is done. You do not continue with this research in my name.

@batteredoldbook
12:49 22/11/2016
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
good point. I'll remove all reference to the SMC.

Golly this is a minefield. It's occurred to me that I shouldn't specify PR either. Just say I'll make his answer public.

I would not sign, trishrhymes, because the letter is appealing to Holgate to remedy significant problems.
For me, Holgate is one of the significant problems.

I would sign a vote of no confidence in Holgate.
 
Messages
38
Location
Leeds, UK
Please excuse me butting in but just want to give my thanks to those PR members who signed an email to Stephen Holgate to help him address his 'perplexity' about the OMEGA petition. Copies have also been sent to the rest of the MEGA team (or at least those who keep their online contact info up to date). I've also posted it on my blog. Good luck with your letter here. https://spoonseeker.com/2016/11/22/the-omega-petition-email-to-professor-holgate/

Potbatch aka Spoonseeker
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
Messages
30
Another load of bull. If i were a patient with an afme membership i'd run like hell.

Part of me is really bothered with this. Another part thinks, Davis, Lipkin, Fluge/Mella are making such strides that this whole thing is gonna be absolete before they've even finished recruiting patients. Gonna donate some more, fuck em.

The issue here I feel is that in the UK, what happens abroad seems not to matter. I think the only way the UK is going to get on board is if UK research shows the BPS approach to be wrong, otherwise we're going to be waiting quite some time. Mark Baker's response to the Countess of Mar was very telling in that regard: when reviewing the NICE guidelines, they will consider foreign research "if it adds to what we already know".
 
Messages
3
As a carer/mother, all this leaves me with no option but to take my fight, my voice and our money and invest it in the USA/Ron Davis and his team. I am tired, fed up and bored of the politics of my daughters serious illness. They can keep their CMRC/MEGA CRAWLEY AFME project. One year of this has sickened me to the heart and I feel so deeply for all the ME patients on PR and the world over. MEGA is a waste of your tremendous fight and little energy!!!
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
I would not sign, trishrhymes, because the letter is appealing to Holgate to remedy significant problems.
For me, Holgate is one of the significant problems.

I would sign a vote of no confidence in Holgate.

You're right, sadly. I am aware of that. I guess I'm poking a stick in the snake's nest to see what happens. I don't expect a positive outcome. I do want in writing from him an admission that he's unshiftable.
 

JohnM

Senior Member
Messages
117
Location
West Yorkshire
Posted 30 minutes ago on AfME Facebook and website:

https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news/why-we-are-supporting-the-mega-research-project/

Why we are supporting the MEGA research project
November 22, 2016
...
MEGA is the culmination of the Grand Challenge, launched at the 2015 UK CFS/M.E. Collaborative (CMRC) conference. We are one of four charities who sit on the Board of the CMRC. The other three are the M.E. Association, M.E. Research UK and the Association of Young People with M.E.

It was agreed that Action for M.E. would represent all four charities on the MEGA team. We are not there as scientists, but instead to advise on patient engagement and to support the patient advisory group (see below).
...
Action for M.E. believes that researchers and people with M.E. should work together to design, implement and disseminate research. Our role is to play an active part in the MEGA team and to support, along with the other three charities, the open recruitment and development of an advisory group of 12-15 people affected by M.E., including carers. This advisory group will play a proactive role in the process of making decisions about key elements of the study, such as who is or isn’t eligible for participation in the study.
...

This Action for M.E. statement is worded in such a way, as to potentially mislead unwary readers that the other charities have also offered their uncritical support for the MEGA study, without regard to the "key elements of the study" yet to be agreed.

Were the other 3 charities informed of the release of this statement, and do they agree with the content? Action for M.E. do not provide any 'disclaimer' that they are only speaking on behalf of their charity only, whether they are speaking for their members or not, is for another conversation.

As far as I am aware MEA have not yet offered their unconditional support for the MEGA study, and will await the release of the final protocol before approaching their members for further views - perhaps in February 2017, though I am doubtful, given there is no Advisory Group in place (see below).

...
Biomedical research
Action for M.E.’s research focus is on biomedical research, investing in research infrastructure which includes bringing researchers into the field and increasing collaboration. This is approximately 20% of the charity’s work as a whole. The focus of the MEGA study is not psychological and does not test any form of treatment, behavioural or otherwise.

We know some people have concerns about the MEGA study. We would like to reiterate that no decisions have been made about the design of the study because the team has yet to recruit the advisory group that will play a role in making these decisions. In this field, the most severely affected are the most severely neglected and we have a responsibility to ensure that this study design includes people with mild, moderate and severe M.E.
...

Nobody is arguing that this study will "test any form of treatment, behavioural or otherwise", but it will gather an awful lot of information that can be used for that purpose; it is possible that patient data collected could be released to BPS researchers prior to the completion of all the supposed aims of the MEGA study.

It is disingenuous not to mention that the current funding application will be used to set up the 'bioresource' only. There is no guarantee that the 'omics stage of the study will be funded once the bioresource is finally set up - in who knows how many years time? The aims of the MEGA study may be classified as biomedical research, but in actual practice ... as @FredaF posted on The New MEGA poll thread, and others on PR have also noted:

The other major problem with MEGA is the symptoms that they say they are interested in aren't those of ME-ICC or ME/CFS-CCC....eg PEM, sore throats, glands, headaches....instead its stress, depression....

Opps - the study would need to measure orthostatic intolerance, heart rate abnormalities on exertion, resting heart rate, temperature, maybe use the rhomberg test, establish the physical functional capacity of entrants (Maybe by 2 day CPET, where possible) maybe by oxygen usage, or on the disability scale. Use of the DePaul Questionaire or similar ie a genuine attempt to understand and glean as much information about ME/CFS. Also why isn't the existing biobank that has 500 well characterised samples being extended??? Charity wise Invest in ME has never let us down to date. MEAssociation has been good although its early support of MEGA and CMRC is a worry- has it flipped???

Can the MEGA study satisfactorily meet their aim to ".. separate out various subsets of people with CFS/ME according to different diagnostic criteria." without the above investigations being carried out on all patients? Why have the MEGA 'omics researchers not applied directly to the funders, given there is already a UK biobank (and others internationally) in place?

@batteredoldbook sums up my thoughts far better than I can myself right now ...

...
Big science isn't necessarily good science and researchers and charities should not simply chase funding. Before we drain research budgets we should ensure all involved agree on what makes good scientific methodology. And to be clear: we do not need new research to make huge progress: We can update NICE guidelines in the light of the intellectual collapse of PACE.
...
The promise of biological research is not enough. First and foremost, charities, researchers and pwme must demonstrate a commitment to the scientific method. This issue is not about BPS vs biological research it is about good vs bad science. People with ME need researchers who are able to make this judgement, researchers who are politically free enough to be able to openly discuss research results, past and future.
...

Again apologies for the long post folks ... one day I'll get round to being more concise, as was the case in times past :D
 
Last edited:

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
This Action of M.E. statement is worded in such a way, as to potentially mislead unwary readers that the other charities have also offered their uncritical support for the MEGA study, without regard to the "key elements of the study" yet to be agreed.

Were the other 3 charities informed of the release of this statement, and do they agree with the content? M.E Action do not provide any 'disclaimer' that they are only speaking on behalf of their charity only, whether they are speaking for their members or not, is for another conversation...

JohnM, your might want to edit "M E Action" to "Action for M.E." or "AfME" to avoid potential confusion.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Were the other 3 charities informed of the release of this statement, and do they agree with the content? M.E Action do not provide any 'disclaimer' that they are only speaking on behalf of their charity only, whether they are speaking for their members or not, is for another conversation.

I don't know, but you are quite right. If AfME are acting as reps for the other three charity orgs, had the other three orgs reviewed the content of today's statement and approved it before it was released?

Edited to add: It's unfortunate that Dr Shepherd is taking some time out and is not around to clarify the MEA's relationship to this statement issued today by AfME. And how, if AfME release future statements re MEGA, readers are to determine when AfME is speaking on behalf of itself and when it is speaking on behalf of all the charity orgs involved.
 
Last edited:

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
The grand challenge was announced September? 2015. If protocol is still to be decided what have they spent over a year doing?
The chances of the 3 established charities breaking from their compromise big tent position now are zero. What we need in U.K. Is birth of another support + advocacy/ campaigning group (telling that AFME/MEA rarely use those descriptors) that takes a less acquiescent / compromise stance. Perhaps the baton has to be passed to fresh or alternative blood rather than expecting change from within.
Some areas just aren't up for discussion with AFME deleting 3 comments mentioning Esther Crawley already today.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Response from Invest in ME via Twitter

@dxrevisionwatch Trustee report and accounts 2014–2015 http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends19/0001036419_AC_20150331_E_C.pdf P14 "Research Panel ....... and Prof Stephen Holgate...."

2:34 PM - 22 Nov 2016
---------------

Trustee Report and Accounts 2014-2015

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends19/0001036419_AC_20150331_E_C.pdf

P14

"The Research Panel meets quarterly and
comprises a mix of Trustees, Supporting
Members, medical adviser and Prof
Stephen Holgate.
Alongside helping to
monitor the charity’s research-funded
activity, it also oversaw the development
of our new Research Strategy, launched
in April 2014."
 
Back