PEM - What do physical and mental exertion have in common?

[adreno]

Conversely there is a model of mental fatigue that involves impaired clearance of extracellular glutamate by astrocytes. But this mechanism is unlikely to apply to skeletal muscle.

Actually muscle activity also increases glutamate release.

 

[MeSci]

If activated microglia are a commonality in both mental and physical PEM, what is the insult they are reacting to ?

What is the benefit of setting off inflammation in the brain after physical exertion ?

You may find the answer in this thread. I was struggling with some brain fog when I tried to put together some of the mechanisms referred to by @Jonathan Edwards, whose kind response to my attempts is here, so the details must be somewhere in that part of the thread!

 

[Marco]

@nandixon

Interesting theory given that many of us are the 'tired and wired' type and some of us have autism like symptoms and score high on Aspergers' checklists which would suggest low brain serotonin if anything (not to mention similar gut symptoms to ASD.

None of which excludes subgroups and in fact there is some evidence for at least two distinct sub-groups whose nervous systems seem to be polar opposites. One group has an exaggerated response to stimuli (which they term an anxious, phobic type) and the other is under-responsive with a pattern usually seen in dementia (these were schoolkids BTW) :

http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...deficits-present-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

The same researchers in later studies though claim success in treating the under-responsive group with SSRIs but that was a flawed study as many of the kids were on other meds such as beta blockers.

 

[alex3619]

many of us are the 'tired and wired' type

I think this is a variable, and over time can change in people. I have had long periods tired and wired (twired) and long periods when it was never a symptom. Diet can influence that, though not reliably.

 

[Marco]

I think this is a variable, and over time can change in people. I have had long periods tired and wired (twired) and long periods when it was never a symptom. Diet can influence that, though not reliably.

It's more trait than state with me Alex although much enhanced post onset.

 

[MeSci]

It's more trait than state with me Alex although much enhanced post onset.

I thought it was a general trait in myself too (general anxiety, being 'hyper', trouble sleeping) until I changed my diet and realised how many years of suffering, medications and self-destructive behaviour I could have avoided if I'd known that diet could fix it.

 

[Marco]

I thought it was a general trait in myself too (general anxiety, being 'hyper', trouble sleeping) until I changed my diet and realised how many years of suffering, medications and self-destructive behaviour I could have avoided if I'd known that diet could fix it.

I'm willing to avoid anything as long as it's not tasty

 

[soxfan]

@MeSci- How specifically did you change your diet to help with the wired/tired symptom. My body always and I mean always never feels at peace inside. The only time I don't feel bad is when I am moving so during the day I spend very little time sitting. I am up and about until around 3 thirty when I need to lay down....then my body goes into overdrive.

Same thing at night....totally wired inside...and it isn't even because I am thinking too much. It is something physically wrong inside and I have no idea what to do. I didn't have this until around 3 years ago...not at all in the beginning.

 

[Snow Leopard]

I am not sure about this. Elevated lactate might be a universal marker the body can sense.

But fatigue is sensed even when lactate levels are normal. I think there is more to it that that (or possibly multiple possible signals).

The following article is interesting (in a hypothetical sort of way):
Biomarkers of peripheral muscle fatigue during exercise
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/13/218/

Also remembering that there is limited permeability across the blood-brain barrier, limited to: actively transported peptides and metabloites, or lipid soluble molecules including those: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_stress

 

[MeSci]

@MeSci- How specifically did you change your diet to help with the wired/tired symptom. My body always and I mean always never feels at peace inside. The only time I don't feel bad is when I am moving so during the day I spend very little time sitting. I am up and about until around 3 thirty when I need to lay down....then my body goes into overdrive.

Same thing at night....totally wired inside...and it isn't even because I am thinking too much. It is something physically wrong inside and I have no idea what to do. I didn't have this until around 3 years ago...not at all in the beginning.

That is all very common in ME.

I have info about my diet and supplements in the Info section of my profile, but here is the diet bit:

I am a long-term vegan.

I cut out gluten, and also oats and buckwheat due to a possible reaction to them, and generally reduced grains and sugar.

I've only included reference to veganism so that people know what else I don't consume! Non-vegans may also need to cut out milk and any non-fermented dairy products, although some seem to tolerate goats' milk.

There's a lot more about diet fixing anxiety, etc., in the leaky-gut forum.

 

[MeSci]

I'm willing to avoid anything as long as it's not tasty

Lost cause...

 

[alex3619]

But fatigue is sensed even when lactate levels are normal.

I don't disagree. Lactic acid is not the whole story. Yet its also possible that acid sensors have increased expression. Like with Leptin it may be the case that we sense high lactic acid even at low levels. The Light's started their research with looking at lactic acid sensors.

 

[nandixon]

Interesting, @nandixon.

Did you consider tianeptine for this? You might also consider 5-HT1A agonists, as activating the autoreceptors will reduce 5-HT release.

@adreno
Thanks! No, I didn't look at tianeptine. I'm not sure if it's still considered to be a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer, but even if it wasn't, if it was available in my country I'd probably try it, but it's not, so I can't.

I double-checked about the 5-HT1A agonists. I haven't ever tried one of those, but at least with regard to the sort of serotonin theory I was thinking about, the literature is indicating they may be pretty close in fatigue effect to SSRI's for me, which I have tried and which are very bad.