Paleo hype debunked (again). The Lancet

[sb4]

We die without polyunsaturated fat.

Whilst this is true I believe there is a strong argument to be made that you only really need ALA and in very small amounts. Go much higher than the bare minimum of PUFAs and you seem to be more likely to run into problems.

Of course it depends on genetics, what disease you have etc so you might require more in these cases but I think the essential fatty acid argument is way over sold and very damaging when you look at the level of PUFAs (particularly omega 6s) consumed in across the world over the last 100 or so years.

In reality it is extremely difficult to be consistently under the requirement for PUFAs unless you have an extremely restricted artificial diet (or a medical condition that requires more).

 

[alex3619]

The PUFA argument is very complex, and there are no RDAs, or were not any RDAs when I looked into this. The big issue we have with PUFAs is the imbalance of omega 3 vs 6. The second issue is that we actually haven't had a huge amount of omega-6 historically ... we have had a huge amount of heat damaged omega-6, or trans fats. The third is many ME patients seem to have a PUFA deficiency, but it cannot be easily corrected with supplementation. Finally we need PUFAs for healing and fighting infection, so if you need either of those you need more. Omega-3 is probably a better bet for many of us, and direct supplementation can indeed lead to problems. However if someone is salicylate sensitive its very likely they will need more, at least some of the time. PUFAs are an example of a little more is often good, but a lot more is bad.

Vegetarians often have lots of omega-6, and some omega-3, all short chain. For anyone one with dysfunctional desaturase enzymes, and this might be common in ME, these are not rapidly converted to long chain PUFAs. This is not a good situation. Salicylate sensitivity usually occurs in this situation if there is a dietary deficiency.

Omega-3s can mostly substitute for omega-6s, and vice versa, but not entirely. Some essential eicosanoids only come from short chain omega-6s, or at least one, PGE1. A diet very high in PUFAs can also be undesirable, but the red blood cell deformability that is probably in ME might be improved with these fats. However any inflammatory tendencies will be worsened, even with omega-3s. (No, omega-3s are not antiinflammatory on balance, but they are much less inflammatory than omega-6s, and compete with omega-6s for enzyme binding and hence hormone synthesis.)

I trialed higher dose alpha linolenic acid for treating ME in the early 90s. It helped for a bit then stopped working.

 

[pamojja]

By the way for general interest, here the macro-nutrient breakdown from still living hunter-gatherers (for which can't find the source fast anymore - therefore take with a grain of salt):

fats (28 - 58 %)

monosaturated (16 - 25 %)
saturated (10 - 15 %)
polyunsaturated (2 - 5 %)​

carbohydrates (22 - 40 %; latitude 41°-60°: 20-9%)
protein (19 - 35 %)
fiber (38 - 86g)

 

[brenda]

Salicylate sensitivity usually occurs in this situation if there is a dietary deficiency.

Interesting as I have salicylate on my dna. I am taking 400 mg DHA (nothing fishy gels) daily due to my plant based diet and wonder if I could take more. Will have to look at that. Thanks.

 

[Eastman]

... can't find the source fast anymore...

Maybe this?

Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets

But yes, take it with a grain of salt anyway because there was some criticism of the method used in the paper.

 

[Wonkmonk]

My (not scientifically derived) hypothesis is that we actually need some carbs and, yes, also sugar, in our diets, especially during childhood.

I think so because of this: Put some sugar in a newborn baby's mouth and they smile. There is one taste that causes this reaction: Sweetness. And it stays that way for most of childhood and still in adulthood we are reacting very positively to sweet taste (that's why people are craving it).

It can't be about energy, because vegetable oil, fatty meat or nuts have more energy than sweet foods, but you don't get the same response from the reward system.

So for some reason, our brain rewards us for consuming sugar, especially during childhood. That can't be a coincidence and it can't be about rewarding people for energy intake. It is good for something.

I think the thing is that we are consuming way too much artificial sugar and carbs from unhealthy sources (white rice, white bread etc).

I would like to see a study in people who consume a lot of carbs, but only from whole grains, fruit and vegetables. I'd bet any amount that you don't find all the negative effects the Paleo diet seeks to avoid. This is in fact the diet found in very healthy indiginous populations, e.g. the Hadza of north-central Tanzania, the Kuna of Panama, the Kitava in the Pacific Islands and the Tukisenta in the Papua New Guinea highlands.

(Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...cf7db_ta&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter)

So in my (very humble) opinion, it's not the carbs that are the problem, it's the wrong carbs. Same with fat. Good fats are healthy, bad fats are not. Carbs from good sources are healthy, carbs from bad sources are not.

 

[pamojja]

But yes, take it with a grain of salt anyway because there was some criticism of the method used in the paper.

At least certain salts truly have been deposited in paleo times .

 

[alex3619]

Interesting as I have salicylate on my dna. I am taking 400 mg DHA (nothing fishy gels) daily due to my plant based diet and wonder if I could take more. Will have to look at that. Thanks.

EPA is also required if the purpose is to quiet inflammation or balance eicosanoids. DHA is however essential for nerve and brain health.

 

[brenda]

I am eating a lot of omega 3 foods like chia seeds, flax and walnuts.

 

[Dufresne]

Paleo is recommended a lot these days on ME forums and just about everywhere else on the Internet.
Yes I know, the discussion about the optimum diet will never end.
But Paleo wont save you and it sure as hell is not going to save our planet either.

There is a huge number of very positive anecdotes from sufferers of various diseases who switched to paleo-like diets. And many people have gone from morbidly obese to healthier body weight following such diets when nothing else seemed to work. It's clear to me that paleo really does help a lot of people.

True, the world would not be a better place if everybody switched to eating meat 4 times a day. But I think people can make up their own minds about what to eat. Paleo is not cheap and you don't accidentally make your way to it. If folks are doing it in increasing numbers there's probably something to it.

 

[HowToEscape?]

There are lots of conditions made worse by plant based eating, just as there are conditions improved by plant based eating. What the broad population should be eating is not the same as what people with specific health issues should be eating.

................
Given the problems in carb metabolism in ME the ideal carb intake is possibly much lower than for regular healthy people. Given our need to burn protein then our protein requirements are higher too.

Fats are trickier, as the type of fat is probably very important, and so its hard to say if we should be eating more or less fat. I do suspect however that a high-carb high-fat combination is about the worst we can eat. The iconic form of that bad combination? The french fry.

We lack good clinical trials of various diets in ME.

Funny thing, a person who has locally made herself the #MEAction point person led a conference call during which she scarfed down an order of fries. That and a half dozen other indications make question if she has M.E.

 

[bertiedog]

t can't be about energy, because vegetable oil, fatty meat or nuts have more energy than sweet foods, but you don't get the same response from the reward system.

I do with salted cashews or peanuts! Maybe because I haven't eaten bread, rice or potatoes for 8 years and have completely lost the taste for any sugar or high carb foods.

Pam

 

[Wonkmonk]

I do with salted cashews or peanuts!

That's because of the salt, not the cashews. Proof: It doesn't work with unsalted cashews.

 

[bertiedog]

That's because of the salt, not the cashews. Proof: It doesn't work with unsalted cashews.

I do eat those as well as plain seeds but yes you are right to a degree for me it's the mixture of the taste of the nuts, seeds plus oil plus salt.

Pam

 

[PhoenixDown]

Cowspiracy

I just watched this on Netflix and although I think some of the statistics are exaggerated, I agree with the sentiment. It says the rainforest is being cut down at the rate of 1 acre per second, that's 86,400 acres a day, hardly believable.

I think the solution is to decrease the population, every woman should only have one child.

 

[pamojja]

I think the solution is to decrease the population, every woman should only have one child.
View attachment 29079

Might just happen naturally in time:

Global Demographic Collapse has Arrived!​

 

[ScottTriGuy]

I think the solution is to decrease the population, every woman should only have one child.

The more people are brought out of poverty to higher standards of living, the fewer children they have.

So another solution is more equitable distribution of wealth.

 

[alex3619]

I just watched this on Netflix and although I think some of the statistics are exaggerated, I agree with the sentiment. It says the rainforest is being cut down at the rate of 1 acre per second, that's 86,400 acres a day, hardly believable.

I think the solution is to decrease the population, every woman should only have one child.
View attachment 29079

China is the ONLY country that has done this, though normal population growth in very affluent countries is typically low or negative, and growth occurs by immigration.

 

[Tammy]

So for some reason, our brain rewards us for consuming sugar, especially during childhood. That can't be a coincidence and it can't be about rewarding people for energy intake. It is good for something.

Wonkmonk.......interestingly enough.....there's tons of articles out there about how critical glucose is for the brain and the why behind it. . The brain is actually made up more of sugars than fat. I remember as a kid eating cow brains at my grandparents ranch (I know it sounds yuck!)......but I actually liked it and remember the sweet taste it had. Also mother's milk of course is made up of more glucose than anything else.