Oxymatrine with Grave's Disease

[frank1001]

Hi all, I understand that John Chia recommends against taking Oxymatrine if the patient has an autoimmune disease. So my first question would be: How risky would you say it actually is?
(I wonder if there are any people on this forum who have taken Oxymatrine while having autoimmune disease, and experienced issues)
Some more context: I have Grave's disease (low TSH and thyroid antibodies), but my CRP is 0.7mg/L , ESR is 2mm/hr, and ANA is negative. The only things I take on a daily basis are methimazole, Vitamin D, and fish oils. My rheumatoid factor is 12IU/mL which seems to be below the threshold of 14IU/mL and I don't really have any notable RA problems running in the family.

My second question, and I know this is probably a long shot... would it be possible for the Oxymatrine to treat the underlying virus, resolve my autoimmune issues, and thus resolve my Grave's disease?
My limited knowledge tells me that autoimmune diseases can be triggered by viruses, but I'm unsure if it would resolve once the underlying virus is treated.
The reason why I’m asking is because I plan on having RAI for my thyroid next month. So if there’s a chance that my Grave’s disease could actually be resolved by Oxymatrine, then would it be worth it to cancel my RAI appointment and pursue this avenue instead?

I'm actually still working on getting an enterovirus test... doctors only agreed to give me tests for EBV and CMV, which I haven't gotten back yet. (I live in Ontario btw). In terms of severity, I would say that my fatigue is somewhere between mild and medium. (I can work but I have brain fog and need to nap twice a day for more than an hour each time). I don't really have any muscle pains though. Overall, is it worth it to try Oxymatrine given my situation?

 

[frank1001]

For more context, I've tried various things including Ubiquinol, bio-PQQ, D-ribose, ashwagandha, neem, haritaki, holy basil, mutaflor probiotic, NADH, and most recently olive leaf, gotu kola and black seed oil. None of them seem to have helped, except for (maybe) securil probiotic.
I'm very curious about the results Dr. Chia seems to have achieved, so I'm thinking it might be time for me to try that next. I've just been putting it off due to the obvious concerns.

 

[lenora]

Hello @frank100l.....You should definitely continue Ubiquinol (which changes to another name that we take after age 40. I can't think of the name of it.) It helps protect the heart and also helps with energy.

Everything is dependent upon the person and exactly what is wrong with him. It takes a long time, but we do learn (as you've already started doing).

It's encouraging that two naps/day allowed you to continue your job. How do you manage at the weekend and with caring for yourself? (Things like shopping for groceries, preparing meals, etc.). I would advise against lifting weights if you're going to a gym....that form of exercise seems to cause a lot of difficulty.

Have you had a proper MRI (brain and spinal cord?), and a diagnosis. Yes, this takes time and often one Dr. alone isn't good enough. Please keep all of your records as time passes and they've become harder if not impossible to get. I also want my own doctors to read not just the reports, but actually see the results of MRI's, etc. I expect you've already had one.....it's surprising to find what is often missed on the radiology readings alone.

I would respect Dr. Chia's recommendation until you've had a chance to "discuss" this with other members. Autoimmune diseases are common among us, especially as we age. I realize that you're probably young...but so was I at one time. I wish you well and heartily welcome you to Phoenix Rising. Yours, Lenora

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hello @frank100l.....You should definitely continue Ubiquinol (which changes to another name that we take after age 40. I can't think of the name of it.) It helps protect the heart and also helps with energy.

CoQ-10 ...

 

[Hip]

I understand that John Chia recommends against taking Oxymatrine if the patient has an autoimmune disease. So my first question would be: How risky would you say it actually is?

Some info on the oxymatrine risks in this post.

 

[Hip]

I'm actually still working on getting an enterovirus test...

Dr Chia says only coxsackievirus B and echovirus antibody tests using the neutralization method are sensitive enough to detect the chronic enterovirus infections of ME/CFS.

 

[frank1001]

Hello @frank100l.....You should definitely continue Ubiquinol (which changes to another name that we take after age 40. I can't think of the name of it.) It helps protect the heart and also helps with energy.

Everything is dependent upon the person and exactly what is wrong with him. It takes a long time, but we do learn (as you've already started doing).

It's encouraging that two naps/day allowed you to continue your job. How do you manage at the weekend and with caring for yourself? (Things like shopping for groceries, preparing meals, etc.). I would advise against lifting weights if you're going to a gym....that form of exercise seems to cause a lot of difficulty.

Have you had a proper MRI (brain and spinal cord?), and a diagnosis. Yes, this takes time and often one Dr. alone isn't good enough. Please keep all of your records as time passes and they've become harder if not impossible to get. I also want my own doctors to read not just the reports, but actually see the results of MRI's, etc. I expect you've already had one.....it's surprising to find what is often missed on the radiology readings alone.

I would respect Dr. Chia's recommendation until you've had a chance to "discuss" this with other members. Autoimmune diseases are common among us, especially as we age. I realize that you're probably young...but so was I at one time. I wish you well and heartily welcome you to Phoenix Rising. Yours, Lenora

Hey there! I'll definitely look into the Ubiquinol again. What dosage do you take? And do you typically take it with anything in particular?
I'm somewhat lucky as I can work from home, helps a lot in my case. As for self-care, driving when I'm not fully alert is problematic, so I try to get groceries delivered through walmart's service whenever possible. Cooking and cleaning is mostly OK for me though.
I vaguely remember getting a scan at some point, although I'm unsure if they scanned my entire brain.. now that you mention it, I should really dig into that again.
Thanks for the warm welcome

 

[frank1001]

Dr Chia says only coxsackievirus B and echovirus antibody tests using the neutralization method are sensitive enough to detect the chronic enterovirus infections of ME/CFS.

By neutralization method you mean this right? https://ltd.aruplab.com/Tests/Pub/0060055

Unfortunately I'm not sure how to get this test without a doctor . I called ARUP and they told me they only work with specific providers like the Ottawa hospital system since I live in Ontario... I'll have to figure out how to convince the doctors there to give me this test.
Just wondering, how easy would it be to head over to the states and convince a doctor to just give me that test through ARUP?

I also found this here... https://www.lifeextension.com/lab-testing/itemlc096263/coxsackie-group-b-antibodies
The advantage seems to be that lifeextensions will just give me the test as long as I can pay for it. But I'm not sure if they use the neutralization method you mentioned. I was about to pursue this avenue actually, so it's a good thing you mentioned the potential inaccuracies

 

[frank1001]

Some info on the oxymatrine risks in this post.

Yea the percentage seems low which is why I've been debating it. Some people seem to also have autoimmune issues but never developed RA and I think I've seen a few on this forum... But on the flip side I'm wondering if there are any others on this forum who have indeed experienced RA or related issues after taking oxymatrine.
I suppose it's a tough decision for me right now. I don't have any experience with RA though so I'm not sure how easy it is to manage if things go south.
By the way, have you encountered or read about anyone who resolved their autoimmune issues through treating the underlying virus? Asking because I'll be getting radioiodine to destroy my thyroid next month, so I wanted to see if there was any other way (I.E if oxymatrine could indirectly resolve my autoimmune issues and thus resolve Grave's disease)... if so, then I'm inclined to just cancel that radioiodine appointment.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I vaguely remember getting a scan at some point, although I'm unsure if they scanned my entire brain.. now that you mention it, I should really dig into that again.

Probably not a scan, but a MRI, tho I'm obviously not sure. An MRI can pick up structures and abnormalities that a CT scan might miss ....

There are two forms of CoQ10, ubiquinol and ubiquinone. Ubiquinol is the most absorbable form.

Both forms have a lot of benefits, particularly to the cardiovascular system. You might want to do a quick google to decide which would be best. Ubiquinol is more expensive than the ubiquinone form of CoQ10, altho they function in pretty much the same way.

Average dosages range from 30 mg to 200 mg a day, and should be taken with a meal or at least some form of fat, since it's a fat soluble supplement. It's best to take it earlier in the day, since it can energize you and interfere with sleep, something I dont thin any of us needs.

And it's hard to take too much because it's so beneficial to soooo many systems, from your heart to your brain to your liver, with stops in between. Health conditions like heart disease, brain disorders, diabetes, and cancer have all been linked to low levels of CoQ10 ....

 

[Hip]

By neutralization method you mean this right? https://ltd.aruplab.com/Tests/Pub/0060055

Yes, that's the only CVB neutralization test I am aware of in the US.

By the way, have you encountered or read about anyone who resolved their autoimmune issues through treating the underlying virus?

I don't think I have come across any such stories. But that may be because we do not currently have any antivirals which can fully eradicate viruses from the body. Viruses hide in the body by various means, such as through latent states, or via non-cytolytic infections.

 

[halcyon]

The only things I take on a daily basis are methimazole, Vitamin D, and fish oils.

What type and dose of fish oils?

For more context, I've tried various things including Ubiquinol, bio-PQQ, D-ribose, ashwagandha, neem, haritaki, holy basil, mutaflor probiotic, NADH, and most recently olive leaf, gotu kola and black seed oil. None of them seem to have helped, except for (maybe) securil probiotic.

Some of these are immunostimulatory as well (and olive leaf extract is in Equilibrant), though it would be hard to quantify how much in relation to Equilibrant.

I'll definitely look into the Ubiquinol again. What dosage do you take? And do you typically take it with anything in particular?

"Pharmacologic" doses of CoQ10 are around 200-400mg and up, I believe. 400mg is used for migraine prophylaxis, and a recent study on ME patients showed some efficacy of 400mg of CoQ10 combined with 200μg of selenium (the latter of which is also very important in relation to enterovirus infection, is also an ingredient in Equilibrant with 180μg at the 6 pill dose, and @Hip has posted about extensively here on PR).

 

[lenora]

Hi @frank1001. I forgot that one takes Enzyme CoQ-10 before the age of 40, and then Ubiquinol is more readily absorbed by the body after age 40. We've had personal experience with the use of this enzyme, so would recommend it to everyone.

Not only does it protect the organs (esp. the heart) but it's also an energy producer. Numerous studies have found this to one of the supplements that cardiologists do recommend to their patients.
Ask your Dr., most are familiar with Ubiquinol and you may receive some guidance there.
Yes, I'm so glad that places like Walmart and other services are providing food for people today. It certainly makes life a whole lot easier. You sound as if you're managing well as long as you don't overdo it (and don't worry about that, we all do from time to time). Trial and error. Yours, Lenora.

 

[frank1001]

@Hip Hmm.. ok that's unfortunate. I was hoping that oxymatrine (or some other herb/antiviral) could kill the virus and resolve my Grave's disease at the same time . Your input is very helpful though. I think I can rest easy and get the radio-iodine ablation treatment with no regrets now.

 

[frank1001]

What type and dose of fish oils?


Some of these are immunostimulatory as well (and olive leaf extract is in Equilibrant), though it would be hard to quantify how much in relation to Equilibrant.


"Pharmacologic" doses of CoQ10 are around 200-400mg and up, I believe. 400mg is used for migraine prophylaxis, and a recent study on ME patients showed some efficacy of 400mg of CoQ10 combined with 200μg of selenium (the latter of which is also very important in relation to enterovirus infection, is also an ingredient in Equilibrant with 180μg at the 6 pill dose, and @Hip has posted about extensively here on PR).

For fish oils, I take 2 capsules of this per day: https://www.amazon.ca/Jamieson-Fish...3/dp/B07F97Z7SX/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GCRSIFN1GT00
Last time I tried Ubiquinol I used this here: https://www.amazon.ca/Webber-Naturals-Ubiquinol-100-Count/dp/B00SSF0RHA/ref=sr_1_5?crid=SI0K8MFWBL0M
I think I typically used 200mg (2 capsules) per day, although I briefly went up to 400mg for about 2 days. I forgot if I tried it with selenium though... will probably try that the next time.

 

[Hip]

I was hoping that oxymatrine (or some other herb/antiviral) could kill the virus and resolve my Grave's disease at the same time

Evolutionary biologist Professor Paul Ewald believes that in future, we will discover that nearly all chronic diseases are caused by infectious pathogens residing in our bodies.

If this turns out to be the case, that the common chronic diseases that afflict humanity are caused by viruses, bacteria and other microbes in the body, then we may one day be able to completely cure these illnesses with powerful antivirals or antibiotics.

But at present, the antivirals or antibiotics we have are not capable of fully eradicating these pathogens from our bodies; they can only really tackle flair-ups of the infection. It would be great if science could in future develop drugs that can completely eradicate pathogens.

 

[frank1001]

Probably not a scan, but a MRI, tho I'm obviously not sure. An MRI can pick up structures and abnormalities that a CT scan might miss ....

There are two forms of CoQ10, ubiquinol and ubiquinone. Ubiquinol is the most absorbable form.

Both forms have a lot of benefits, particularly to the cardiovascular system. You might want to do a quick google to decide which would be best. Ubiquinol is more expensive than the ubiquinone form of CoQ10, altho they function in pretty much the same way.

Average dosages range from 30 mg to 200 mg a day, and should be taken with a meal or at least some form of fat, since it's a fat soluble supplement. It's best to take it earlier in the day, since it can energize you and interfere with sleep, something I dont thin any of us needs.

And it's hard to take too much because it's so beneficial to soooo many systems, from your heart to your brain to your liver, with stops in between. Health conditions like heart disease, brain disorders, diabetes, and cancer have all been linked to low levels of CoQ10 ....

Yea I used ubiquinol, it was pretty costly . It's interesting that you mention a difference between MRI and CT.. I'll keep that in mind for sure.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Yea I used ubiquinol, it was pretty costly

I think that its one of the few things that's actually worth the $$$. The best somewhat cheap-ish one that I use is NOW Foods CoQ10, 60mgs. With everyone jumping on the inflation bandwagon, the miserbale bustards, it's gone up from about 17 for 180 to almost 24.00

It's interesting that you mention a difference between MRI and CT.. I'll keep that in mind for sure.

I'm glad that helped. It would make a diff as to how much, and how clearly, the radiologist could perceive abnormalities ....

 

[frank1001]

I think that its one of the few things that's actually worth the $$$. The best somewhat cheap-ish one that I use is NOW Foods CoQ10, 60mgs. With everyone jumping on the inflation bandwagon, the miserbale bustards, it's gone up from about 17 for 180 to almost 24.00

I'm glad that helped. It would make a diff as to how much, and how clearly, the radiologist could perceive abnormalities ....

By the way is there a specific story you had in mind in regard to MRI's picking up things that CT's can't pick up? If so then I'm curious to hear what it is

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

By the way is there a specific story you had in mind in regard to MRI's picking up things that CT's can't pick up? If so then I'm curious to hear what it is

No story, just science. Do a quick google for a better explanation than I could give you ....

Plus, I've had multiple of both, and what shows up on an MRI or a PET scan is infinitely more detailed than a simple CT scan, altho it can pick up a lot.