Oxymatrine, aspartame, gut problems and gluten intolerance

[JohnnyMinnesota99]

Hello everybody,

I have taken oxymatrine for almost 12 months now and haven't had any side effects. I am not sure if oxymatrine helped me significantly (I have elevated CVB antibodies), but there has been a certain benefit, which is great! Moreover, I take Q10, s acetyl glutathione and sodium selenite. In general, I feel much better than three or four years ago. I can even exercise moderately, which is fantastic. It's hard to say what brought about recovery, but there has been a certain recovery so that I consider myself an 8 or 8.5 according to the engery level scale.

Here's my question: I have had gut problems for quite some time now, and according to the lab results, I have elevated transglutaminase antibodies which could be a sign of gluten intolerance.

Given the fact that oxymatrine increases the immune response and strengthens the immune system, do you think it could also increase allergies and autoimmune reactions. I have been asking myself this very question since I have never had problems with gluten in my life. My transglutaminiase antibodies were already higher two years ago, but they were below the threshold.

What is your impression, and what do you think? Anybody else who has a gluten intolerance and takes oxymatrine?

Well, there is another mystery that keeps me pondering... In the past 6 months I drank a lot ot coke zero, which includes the artificial sweetener aspartame. I recently read that aspartame can turn good gut bacteria into bad ones by creating some sort of foil around them so they can attach to the intestinal wall and even break through it... That'd be a problem because gut bacteria can cause a serious damage when being outside the gut, as we know.

Interestingly, my gut bacteria coli and enterococci are both reduced at the moment, so I started a course of enterococci just the other day.

It's weird. Had I known that aspartame can be so dangerous, I would never have taken it!

Do you think I can take good enterococci and coli bacteria to neutralise my enteric glora, or should I have to get rid of potential gut bacteria in the intestinal wall (caused be the foil around them through the aspartame)?

I'd be very interested in your opinions and advice! Thank you very much to those who have given me great insights and pieces of adivce to understand CFS better, You have been of excellent help to me, and I am very grateful to you!

Thank you very much in advance. Have a nice day

Johnny Minnesota

 

[JohnnyMinnesota99]

@Judee @Hip @Pyrrhus

 

[Pyrrhus]

Given the fact that oxymatrine increases the immune response and strengthens the immune system, do you think it could also increase allergies and autoimmune reactions.

I believe that Dr. Chia has said that yes, it might worsen or trigger autoimmune conditions. Not sure about gluten intolerance, though.

Hope this helps.

 

[Judee]

I sent you a long PM with all the things I use for different stomach issues. I may still copy it here in case others would find it helpful but want to fix it up a bit.

 

[JohnnyMinnesota99]

Thank you very much!

 

[gregh286]

Hi Johnny
I have major issues with gluten but took me many years to really nail down a connection.
Reason being reactions were varied....delayed......symptoms differed.....

I can get anything from tennis elbow to sore knee....migraine to swollen gums and face.....always fatigue (awful vo2 max) symptoms can be instant like a mild analyphaltic to taking a 24 or 36 hours. So affecting different immune triggers cells....so this made the problem not obvious.

Takes weeks to months of good care and gluten avoidance to get squared up. Even foods with gluten removed or close to zero like whiskey etc can cause issues. I think because it started life a grain it can still make havoc little sense that makes.

Same.as you I'm moved to about 8.5
Good luck.

 

[JES]

Generally speaking, commercial probiotics are not very good at colonizing your gut. In other words, they remain in your system for 72 hours and after that most of them are gone. There are a few exceptions though. Which brand do you take?

The other issue is that most commercial probiotics only contain a couple of strains, whereas your gut has for example, in the case of enterococci, hundreds of different strains. That doesn't mean commercial probiotics are completely useless, but they don't really serve as substitute for all the species, subspecies and strains of bacteria in the human gut. I remember reading an old study where they found ME/CFS patients having much lower levels of E. coli, so it would be consistent that you measured low on that one and it might just be a consequence of the disease itself.

Regarding aspartame, those findings seem interesting and a bit worrisome, but meanwhile we don't know if it has any actual illness causing effect other than those bacteria behaving differently. Millions of people drink an alarming amount of diet soda with aspartame daily, so we would certainly know by now if it was causing ME/CFS symptoms for example.

 

[Cipher]

@JohnnyMinnesota99 Have you been investigated for coeliac disease? From what I've read anti-transglutaminase antibodies are present in almost all cases of coeliac disease. And if you have coeliac disease, eating gluten not only can give temporary adverse effects, it can long term lead to cillous atrophy, destruction of parts of the small intestine, leading to malabsorption. I think they diagnose coeliac disease via a biopsy.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

@JohnnyMinnesota99
The autoimmune topic is quite strange. Chia had a case where one of his patients developed arthritis while on oxymatrine. I couldn't find any evidence of supporting his conclusions that oxymatrine is causative (cause and correlation, you know what I mean). In fact I take oxymatrine though I have an autoimmune disease: psoriasis. Not only that I don't have any flare on oxymatrine I even found studies showing a therapeutic effect on psoriasis. I also heard other ppl (for example with Hashimoto) taking it without problems. So I'm not sure about Chia's theory - in fact I doubt it.

Probiotics. It's exactly what @JES said. If you want to dig deeper you can read the book “the good gut” by two researchers from Stanford. There is an entire chapter about probiotics, when they might be helpful and what they are not capable of (recolonizing your gut for example - there is just not good evidence to support these claims it is just money making). Some strains have some other advantages though like building butyrates (that act as a mild HDACi). It also explains in detail why the wrong diet can lead to inflammation.

I think there is some evidence that our glycolysis is impaired so I would avoid any things that are high in sugar that aren't necessary (especially if they are artificial). That might also explain why some benefit from being on ketosis.

Science doesn't know what a healthy diet is. Whether in healthy people nor in ME. But some things aren't necessary and can be avoided. Like Coke. Which besides has a lot of stuff in it that you don't want to have inside you'd body. No matter if normal, zero, light or whatever.

Diet won't cure you, but it can make you worse as you found out yourself. And lead to other diseases on top of ME after years.

But that's an OPINION!
We still lack good studies on nutrition.
And there are A LOT of quackeries out there when it comes to diet.

 

[Woof!]

@JohnnyMinnesota99 But some things aren't necessary and can be avoided. Like Coke. Which besides has a lot of stuff in it that you don't want to have inside your body. No matter if normal, zero, light or whatever.
Diet won't cure you, but it can make you worse as you found out yourself. And lead to other diseases on top of ME after years.

Agreed!!! Garbage-in means garbage-out (and our bodies need better).

On another note, where people are quick to wonder if they're gluten-intolerant, most don't realize how starch-intensive "gluten-free" preparations often are. One can also be starch-intolerant (like me).

 

[JohnnyMinnesota99]

Many thanks for your insightful answer! I really appreciate your help.

Well, things are quite strange. The gut problems I can handle now. I take Psyllium seed husks, and moreover i take healing clay, and things have got besser. I will take "Mutaflor" (coli) and Symbioflor (enterococci). The probiotics I was taking I stopped.

I also stopped taking Oxymatrine, and I am realising a flare up or a worsening of symptoms. The things is, that could also be due to an infection, similar like a minor flu. It's really hard to say. So I decided to go without the Oxymatrine for some days in order to find out if my current fatigue symptoms are infectional or if they were caused by the stopped intake of oxymatrine. I don't know. It's not that I am feeling bad, but as soon as I have any kind of physial strain, I feel worse. My symptoms, however, are not so much like those I had when I "CFS-crashed". It's more that I'm short of breath, even though I don't feel a pain in my lungs (my oxygen saturation is perfect, and so is my pulse/bpm).

As for diet foods, I will never ever have them. I think I will go for a regular coke every now and then, mixed with water. That will be it. I am pretty sure the Psyllium and the healing clay have helped meto some extent.

As far as the oxymatrine is concerned, Well, except for stronger symptoms of my allergy to Pollen, I haven't felt anything bad after an intake for 12 months so far. Maybe I ill return to it since I was able to moderately exercise when on it. I guess I just have to wait some days and find out how my health status will develop. Curiously, after stopping taking the oxymatrine, I don't have agas belly any more, even after eating gluten. I wonder if there was a connection between the oxymatrine and my probable gluten intolerance. As for a potential coelica disease: I have had quite a number of coloskopies and gastroscopies, and the doctors did not diagnose the condition. The current diagnosis was made on the basis ofa blood work and the anti-transglutaminase antibodies one could detect. I will keep track of it...

Dr. Chia, however, says that one should not interrupt the intake of oxymatrine. Well, I don't know of that's true. Could be that I will return to it and take it regularly again.

To those taking oxymatrine on a regular basis: Have long have you taken it so far, and for how long are you considering taking it?

Once again thank you very much for your excellent advice and your insightful estimations! It's just great to participate in our forum since it provides so much help and advice!

Best wishes

Johnny Minnesota

 

[EddieB]

I’m glad oxymatrine has helped you. I have a positive biopsy for entero from Dr Chia’s lab, but oxymatrine worries me, because of the “worse before better” concept. So not brave enough to try it yet.

I sent you a long PM with all the things I use for different stomach issues. I may still copy it here in case others would find it helpful but want to fix it up a bit.

Would love to see your list...