• Phoenix Rising needs funds to operate: please consider donating to support PR

One Uncertainty About the CBS Protocol Before Commencing...

Hi everyone (including @caledonia),

I have been doing the CBS protocol for more than 8 weeks now but, I cannot seem to get my initial sulphate levels (800 >) to (400 >). Though, about 4 weeks ago, Grimace92 helped point out that the Betaine HCl that I was supplementing has been stimulating my BHMT, which results in more sulphate being drained down the CBS pathway. The only thing that I can I can think of that would be causing my sulphate levels to drop, is that I don't supplement yucca because I had negative reactions when I tried it a few times during the early stages of the CBS protocol.

I eat about 130g of protein a day. Is lowering ammonia levels also crucial for successfully lowering sulphate levels? Any input would be much appreciated, thank you
Hi topghetto,

It took me 12 weeks to get mine down. I was only able to get it down to that hard-to-read in-between number "600", but that was sufficient.

However, I was taking yucca. There is another supp that you can use instead of yucca, i believe it's called butyrate. L-orthinine might be another one.

I followed the Free Thiol diet and so didn't restrict meat. However, my ammonia was ok on my Nutreval test.

Manganese is also supposed to help with ammonia.

It seems logical that lowering ammonia would be helpful with getting sulfur lowered, but I can't find a straight answer to that.
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
Hi @caledonia,

I also noticed that my sulphate readings are never clear as day. I just assume mine are 800 > (or perhaps even less). Mine is clearly not 1200 >, that I am sure of, aha.

Thank you very much for your suggestions and I will definitely give them a read
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
Hi @caledonia,

After a day of reading, I decided that I may go with the L-ornithine but, I am a bit unsure whether I should supplement it as hydrochloric acid rather than alpha-ketoglutarate, as some say AKG can convert to glutamates, and most of the studies were based on the hydrochloric form. What would be your take on this? Also, I read somewhere that butyrates consist of sulfur, (though, I can't validate this but, I feel it would better for me to be safe than sorry, as I am already struggling to get my sulphate levels down, aha),

Thank you
 
Last edited:
Hi @caledonia,

After a day of reading, I decided that I may go with the L-ornithine but, I am a bit unsure whether I should supplement it as hydrochloric acid rather than alpha-ketoglutarate, as some say AKG can convert to glutamates, and most of the studies were based on the hydrochloric form. What would be your take on this? Also, I read somewhere that butyrates consist of sulfur, (though, I can't validate this but, I feel it would better for me to be safe than sorry, as I am already struggling to get my sulphate levels down, aha),

Thank you
I don't really know. This might be a case where trial and error is going to be needed. You could try the hydrochloric acid version of l-ornithine first, then if that's not tolerated go to AKG, then if that's not tolerated, the butyrate.

Or if you can physically get hold of the unopened bottles of supps, you can do self muscle testing on them to see which ones agree with your body. This is a good instructional video:

Or you can try making a post on here asking people for samples of stuff they have tried. It's easy to slip a few capsules into a padded envelope and mail it. I've both asked for samples and received samples before.
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
I'll try them in that order, thank you.

Self muscle testing seems like it will be quite tricky for me to get a hang off, aha. I'll keep practicing though.

Ah, I love this community, everyone is so helpful. I live in the UK so, I think it will be better for me to just buy them on Amazon instead, as they have a 30 day, no questions asked, return policy on products sold officially by them ;)
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
Hi @caledonia,

I tried taking the L-ornithine as hydrochloric acid but, within hours, I felt so weak, and whatnot. I have not taken it ever since. I still feel pretty weak, and my head hurts pretty bad now. I believe the reason I felt really weak after taking the L-ornithine is, for ornithine to create citrulline, it must also need carbamoyl phosphate (which consists of ammonia and 2 ATPs, and perhaps something more but, my memory is not the greatest). So, I think the carbamoyl phosphate synthetase sucked most of my remaining ATP, aha. I am only trying to go by what I (sort of) remember reading last time. Though, this is not the reason why I am writing to you.

Weeks ago, I randomly dipped one of the sulphate strips into a cup of water, and the strips showed a reading so low that even the mg guidelines on the bottle does not display the reading I saw. Then a couple of days ago, after being so frustrated with trying to get my sulphate levels (800), to an optimal level, just before I went to bed, I measured my sulphate levels and they were less than 200. The lowest I have ever measured on those strips. I (unintentionally) drank a bottle of water a hour prior to the testing, and my urine was also pretty clear so, perhaps the colour of my urine can also can effect the sulphate readings in some way. Normally, once a week, I would always test my sulphate levels the moment I wake up. Anyway, this peaked my curiosity.

So, the following the day, I decided to measure my sulphate levels 5 different times of the day. I kept a log because my memory is so poor. Anywho, I'll paste the log in here...

1. As usual, I tested my sulphate levels, and it was 800 >. I was not surprised as my urine was pretty yellow.

2. After I ate my breakfast (which consisted of 10 chicken wings), hours later I measured my sulphate level, and it was < 200 for sure - And my urine was in the middle of being clear and being yellow

3. Hours later, I tested again, and it was a reading of < 1200 and, I barely drank any water since the last test.

4. Hours later, I measured my sulphate levels again, and the reading was a little hard to read so, I'll just say it was 800 or even less. And, I whizzed onto the strip this time, rather dipping it into urine (which I normally do). Though, in the past, I compared a sulphate strip that was whizzed onto to one which dipped - the dipped strip proved to be more of an accurate reading.

5. Three hours after I had dinner (which was brown rice, homemade tomato soup and plantain, with assorted meats :)), I measured my sulphate levels, and I barely drank any water (besides the bottle I had with my dinner), the reading was a clear reading of 400.

Now, this brings me to my next two questions, when you were measuring your sulphate levels, what time of the day did you measure them? and, according to the Heartfixer website, the goal is to lower sulphate levels to 400mg or to at least 800mg? What do you think I reckon I should do?

I do apologise for this extensive post, and many thanks in advance.
 
Hi @caledonia,
Now, this brings me to my next two questions, when you were measuring your sulphate levels, what time of the day did you measure them? and, according to the Heartfixer website, the goal is to lower sulphate levels to 400mg or to at least 800mg? What do you think I reckon I should do?

I do apologise for this extensive post, and many thanks in advance.
Hi Topghetto,
I looked back at my notes from when I was doing this, to make sure I was remembering correctly. I didn't record what time of day I tested with the urine sulfate strips. However, I doubt if I was doing it at a consistent time of day. I probably would have waited until later in the day when I felt better and remembered to do it. So probably not first thing in the morning. But it might have been at varying times later in the day.

Anyway, my reading was always consistently high. It never went up and down like yours is doing. It very gradually over many weeks got lower and lower.

I think that if it goes up and down that means that you're taking in sulfur and then detoxifying it vs. if it's always high, you're not detoxifying it.

So I think you might be done.

Are you taking molydenum? I still continue to take some for maintenance, so I don't revert backwards.
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
@caledonia,

Woohoo! And yes, I am taking molybdenum but, only 35mcg of it. A couple of weeks before starting the CBS protocol, I took 150mcg and I can't remember the exact symptoms but, after ingestion, what I did notice is that I did not feel right for a couple of days. When I eventually did start the protocol, I halved the tablet (to 75mcg) and after a week, I felt a bit weird so, then I halved it again (to 37.5mcg), and that sort of did the trick without having any side effects.

Oh, that's good that you still take it because I am also on planning to continue taking it, as well as the charcoal, when (and if) I am done with the CBS protocol.

I think I'll try re-doing the Simplified Methylation Protocol next week. Do you think that's a good idea? :)

Thank you for taking the time to go through your notes, and getting back to me. I really do appreciate it :)
 
@caledonia,
I think I'll try re-doing the Simplified Methylation Protocol next week. Do you think that's a good idea? :)
:)
Well, you'll have to restart with something. :)

However, Rich's Simplified Protocol has become out of date, due to Yasko discontinuing the General Neurological Health Formula.

The new Holistic Health All In One multi by Yasko is not a direct substitute as it contains methylfolate, folinic, and lecithin. So you don't need to additionally take those.

So basically, you can take the All In One multi + your favorite sublingual B12 as the new version of the Simplified Protocol. This is the core of what I'm doing, along with anything else that I'm deficient in (mostly electrolytes and minerals.) This is working well for me.

Note that the All In One + sublingual B12 is extremely powerful, so take it easy. I'm only taking 1/64 of one pill, two days a week, as toxic metals are coming out (a good thing) and it makes me feel worse if I go too fast. Skipping days gives the metals a chance to clear before the next round.

Be sure to have some potassium on hand for when healing starts, and some nicotinic acid form of niacin in case things get going too fast and you need to slow it down.

See the "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment" documents in my signature links for more info and tips.
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
@caledonia
True that :redface:

I just re-read your two documents, I am actually a fan of yours, aha, and, it was super informative!

Ooooooh, that multi-vitamin looks really good on paper. I would have been totally sold on it but, I see that it contains folic acid (and like you said in one of your documents, I also wonder why Dr. Yasko added that in there).

I still have some of the supplements (including the Thorne's Children Basic Nutrients) for the simplified methylation protocol from the time I tried it almost 2 years ago (way before I got my 23andMe SNPs).

I think I'll try doing the SMP again, and if that does not work out, I'll try to be brave and try out the all-in-one multi that you suggested.

Oh, yeah, I am homozygous for the VDR Taq gene but, I am also heterozygous for all the COMT genes so, I am confused as to what B12 supplement I should supplement. According to Heartfixer, my genes say I can tolerate more methyl groups but, not as much as someone that was COMT -/-. Does this mean it is safe for me to take Methyl-B12 but, I should carefully watch the dose?

Thanks again :)
 
@caledonia
Oh, yeah, I am homozygous for the VDR Taq gene but, I am also heterozygous for all the COMT genes so, I am confused as to what B12 supplement I should supplement. According to Heartfixer, my genes say I can tolerate more methyl groups but, not as much as someone that was COMT -/-. Does this mean it is safe for me to take Methyl-B12 but, I should carefully watch the dose?

Thanks again :)
Yasko has a nifty chart on her Simplified Roadmap page (about halfway down the page), which is much clearer than Heartfixer's chart. http://www.scribd.com/doc/132017201/Dr-Amy-s-Simplified-Road-Map-to-Health

So for yours she is saying "All three types with less methyl B12 ".
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
Hi @caledonia

I was wondering if taking niacin in the form of niacinamide would also absorb methyl groups? I ask this because I can't seem to find that many niacin supplements in the form of nicotinic acid
 
Hi @caledonia

I was wondering if taking niacin in the form of niacinamide would also absorb methyl groups? I ask this because I can't seem to find that many niacin supplements in the form of nicotinic acid
I'm using Now extended release niacin. It doesn't say nicotinic acid on the bottle, but if you go into Now's literature, it says it is nicotinic acid.

According to this article from Now, flush free or extended release niacinamide = nicotinamide.
http://www.nowfoods.com/Quality/Quality-Notes/M092645.htm
http://www.nowfoods.com/Quality/Quality-Notes/M092645.htm

According to Wikipedia, niacinamide = nicotinamide = nicotinic acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinamide
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
@caledonia
Ah, thank you so much for going out of your way to clear this up. I would of done this myself but, my head has been banging lately, and let's not also forget ye olde brain fog, aha.

Since, all forms of niacin will pretty much soak up excess methyl groups, it would not hurt if I went with this one...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/FSC-500mg-N...?ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=8-1&keywords=niacin

Would that suffice? Sorry, for all the questions :whistle:
Yes, I think that would be ok.
 
Messages
75
Likes
17
Location
London
@caledonia,

Thank you.

If you do not mind me asking, considering that you have done the CBS protocol and currently doing Dr. Yasko's protocol, how are your symptoms like these days, on a scale of 1 to 10? Like, do you still have brain fog, PEM, etc. Sorry, I'm just a little curious :woot:
 
@caledonia,

Thank you.

If you do not mind me asking, considering that you have done the CBS protocol and currently doing Dr. Yasko's protocol, how are your symptoms like these days, on a scale of 1 to 10? Like, do you still have brain fog, PEM, etc. Sorry, I'm just a little curious :woot:
I've gone from a 2.5 to a 3. My brain is pretty good unless I get tired. PEM is a notch lighter. My thyroid is healed from autoimmune thyroiditis and I no longer need a med. My adrenals, which were previously flatlined, are at about 50% based on the amount of supps I've been able to reduce.

So things are going in a positive direction, on an amazingly tiny dose of methyl supps. I'm still detoxing metals, so I can't go any faster or I will feel much worse. Once the metals are out, I should be able to increase.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,846
Likes
1,692
Wait until CBS is addressed. Otherwise the methyl groups from the lecithin (converts to TMG, which is tri methyl glycine), could cause problems.
@caledonia - how do you know that you're ready to add Lecithin? My main ammonia / CBS symptom is brain fog & fatigue. I also experience joint pain and general aches, but the brain fog is the most stubborn.

Also, what kind of problems can adding it too soon cause? Symptoms?

thanks.