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New personal finding: PEM threshold related to activity level

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borko2100

Senior Member
Messages
160
Sorry for the slightly complicated title, I'll try to explain in simple terms what I've recently confirmed for myself regarding PEM. This is based on looking back on my PEM patterns over the past 5 years.

Basically, it seems to me that if I am moderately active triggering PEM requires me overextending myself quite a lot. On the other hand If I am not active at all triggering PEM is quite easy.

More specifically: let's say I've been resting at home and pacing for a month and then suddenly I have a day that is quite stressful (eg. going outside for a doctors appointment), then it is almost guaranteed for me that the same day in the evening or the next day I get PEM.

Now, if I have that exact same stressful day, but the preceding month I have been doing moderate daily activity like some walking and socializing instead, then I might not get the PEM at all or get very mild PEM.

In other words, the threshold, or the amount of activity required to trigger PEM seems to be increased when the activity level is high and reduced when it is low.

I remember someone on this forum mentioned experiencing something similar, anyone else?
 
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Husband of

Senior Member
Messages
318
Hi, interesting post.

I heard someone talk about the opposite - the higher the activity level the lower their pem threshold. Something like over exerting causing a permanent, or long term, reduction in pem threshold.

also, concerning your data, could it be that your activity level is reduced because you are in a worse state, and that it's the fact you are in a worse state that causes a lower pem threshold?

or, there is something else going on that causes variation in pem threshold, and the higher your threshold the more activity you are able to do? Ie the causation is around the other way.

are you female? If so have you correlated your activity level and pem threshold with your menstrual period?
 
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hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,116
Husband of said:
I looked up your previous posts and it looks like @hapl808 was the other user that had this experience
Click to expand...

Not totally. My threshold is 'maybe' lowered when I pace extremely strictly, but the crashes are worse when I don't and become constant. It's just a damned if I do, damned if I don't - slightly different flavor of damning.

There is no moderate daily activity for me, though. I'm severe and housebound at best, bedbound at worst. Haven't taken an unassisted step in half a decade, so just splitting hairs.

Phone calls crash me. Videochats crash me. Laundry crashes me. Cooking crashes me. Just took a choline supplement, that seems to have crashed me (keep thinking choline might be helpful). CBD crashes me. Noise crashes me.

Meh.
 
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lenora

Senior Member
Messages
4,926
I think we have to take how we feel day by day. I used to be a walker....truly walked and biked. The biking went before I was even diagnosed with my many problems (no balance even when standing).

There were long periods when I couldn't walk, but then I was able to do approx. 2-3 mi./day depending on how I felt. I didn't let laziness stop me, but if I knew it was a bad idea, I quickly returned home.

Then I developed 3 cases of shingles, one right after the other, and was bedridden for a month. A 4th case was earlier, I was younger and the first cases are often the easiest.

After shingles I was never able to get back to my old record and had to simply let it go. I do believe that being taught simple exercises can help, exercises for those who are bedridden and just walking around the house are all good. I'm outside a lot....I wouldn't miss a day if at all possible. Unfortunately, there are no real answers...listen to your body and actually HEAR what it's saying, not what you want it to.

I agree that socializing can be energy sapping. I used to grocery shop....that's now impossible. My balance is not good and I've developed two different types of epilepsy and they can cause blackouts and falls. My point: We're all different. What we can do at one age we can't at another. I encourage you, but I've noticed that weights often lead to trouble at some point. FYI. Yours, Lenora
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
This seems like one of those factors that varies a lot between individuals. My physically-induced PEM seemed to be triggered by the amount of muscles cells damaged by activity, so basically, the more unusual the movements, the more likely PEM would occur.

If your stressful; activity is triggering cognitively-induced PEM, then your physical activity level preceding it might affect the level of neurochemicals, neural mitochondrial state, local temporary waste storage capacity, etc, which would affect how well your brain can deal with stress. Maybe you can turn that hypothesis into some experiments to test it.
 
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hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,116
Wishful said:
If your stressful; activity is triggering cognitively-induced PEM, then your physical activity level preceding it might affect the level of neurochemicals, neural mitochondrial state, local temporary waste storage capacity, etc, which would affect how well your brain can deal with stress. Maybe you can turn that hypothesis into some experiments to test it.
Click to expand...

Sadly for me it's not just stressful activity, but also enjoyable activity. A really enjoyable videochat will crash me way worse than a stressful phone call or series of emails. Listening to some music I love will crash me way worse than financial stress or an angry conversation.

Makes no sense, but there it is. Whatever neurochemicals or monkey paws.
 
InitialConditions

InitialConditions

Messages
59
Location
Lancashire, UK
borko2100 said:
Sorry for the slightly complicated title, I'll try to explain in simple terms what I've recently confirmed for myself regarding PEM. This is based on looking back on my PEM patterns over the past 5 years.

Basically, it seems to me that if I am moderately active triggering PEM requires me overextending myself quite a lot. On the other hand If I am not active at all triggering PEM is quite easy.

More specifically: let's say I've been resting at home and pacing for a month and then suddenly I have a day that is quite stressful (eg. going outside for a doctors appointment), then it is almost guaranteed for me that the same day in the evening or the next day I get PEM.

Now, if I have that exact same stressful day, but the preceding month I have been doing moderate daily activity like some walking and socializing instead, then I might not get the PEM at all or get very mild PEM.

In other words, the threshold, or the amount of activity required to trigger PEM seems to be increased when the activity level is high and reduced when it is low.

I remember someone on this forum mentioned experiencing something similar, anyone else?
Click to expand...

But if you've been resting a month it's probably for a reason — your baseline is probably lower than average, so it's not a suprise you'll get PEM if you have a stressful day where you overexert.

Likewise, if you've been steadily active for a few weeks, it's probably because you're not in a crash and you're doing slightly better. And therefore you're less likely to crash even though you do the exact same on this day as in the above scenario.

I relate to what you're describing btw, because I have noticed this pattern. But I think you're looking at this the wrong way.
 
wabi-sabi

wabi-sabi

Senior Member
Messages
1,489
Location
small town midwest
InitialConditions said:
Likewise, if you've been steadily active for a few weeks, it's probably because you're not in a crash and you're doing slightly better. And therefore you're less likely to crash even though you do the exact same on this day as in the above scenario.
Click to expand...
I like the sound of this interpretation. Our safe baseline is just so variable. It can be really hard to sort out.
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
hapl808 said:
Sadly for me it's not just stressful activity, but also enjoyable activity.
Click to expand...

A minor confusion about the definition of "stress". Enjoyable activities can also demand a lot of cognitive activity, which stresses the 'equipment' (neurons, mitochondria, waste transport, etc). What I said applies to any cognitive exertion: the physical processes supporting that exertion can be affected by processes elsewhere in the body. Now that I think about it, physical activity will affect the gut, vagus nerves, other parts of the autonomic system, and whatever else, all of which may influence the brain's ability to do cognitive exertion. So, if we're talking about cognitively-induced PEM, it's no surprise that the threshold level will be affected by physical factors. It would be less affected by what you ate recently because of homeostasis maintaining nutrient levels despite changes in intake, at least for many nutrients.
 
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lenora

Senior Member
Messages
4,926
Hi.....I just wanted to mention that good stress is as damaging as bad. As pointed out by others, there are mechanisims to the problems.

The one thing about good stress is that we can take happiness from it and that's good. Bad stress just depletes us and leaves nothing but trouble behind. Many, many diseases have those same symptoms.

For those of us with digestive problems, we can immediately tell when something is going to affect us. Perhaps it's being aware of our bodies, but you can always tell when trouble is going to start. There is a certain tightening that goes on that didn't exist beforehand. If possible, that's the time to walk away for a bit, have a break, etc., one learns as we go along this path.

I can't/won't deal with the telephone after 4:00 p.m. I've done this for years and it's one of the smarter things in my case. Yours may be different. I also don't eat anything after 6:00 p.m., even before that it's likely to be very light. Never a heavy meal. Your body will teach you a lot if you listen. Yours, Lenora
 
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borko2100

Senior Member
Messages
160
Wishful said:
So, if we're talking about cognitively-induced PEM, it's no surprise that the threshold level will be affected by physical factors. It would be less affected by what you ate recently because of homeostasis maintaining nutrient levels despite changes in intake, at least for many nutrients.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting theory. Being physically active (even if it's just walks or minor stuff) does affect a lot of things. Maybe it somehow affects the capacity of the brain to make energy and consequently the PEM threshold from cognitive activities.
 
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