New MEGA study website (30 November 2016)

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
In case anyone's interested, I thought I'd better let you know I've just withdrawn my application to join the MEGA PAG. I only mention it because I had said earlier on this thread that I'd applied.

Two reasons - Charles Shepherd says there are plenty of good applications so I feel less responsibility to try to do something, and I'm feeling particularly feeble and crappy today and was starting to dread the possibility of trying to be a shrimp trying to turn a supertanker.
 
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@charles shepherd wrote: 'And thank you to everyone on the PR forum who has applied to join the PAG'

How do you know that anyone on the PR Forum has applied to be on the PAG, if the applications are anonymous, and assessed as anonymous?

To my knowlege only one PR member, @trishrhymes , has publicly stated that (as a PR member) that she applied to be on the PAG. Though @trishrhymes has just withdrawn her application (for understandable reasons).

NB - In my view, you are not a 'shrimp', Trish. :)
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trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
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@charles shepherd wrote: 'And thank you to everyone on the PR forum who has applied to join the PAG'

How do you know that anyone on the PR Forum has applied to be on the PAG, if the applications are anonymous, and assessed as anonymous?

To my knowlege only one PR member, @trishrhymes , has publicly stated that (as a PR member) that she applied to be on the PAG. Though @trishrhymes has just withdrawn her application (for understandable reasons).

NB - In my view, you are not a 'shrimp', Trish. :)
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Thanks, @Wildcat, in terms of MEGA I'm probably a lower life form than a shrimp, but I appreciate your kindness! :)

I didn't mention my membership of either PR or the MEA in my application, not because I was hiding anything, but, as I remember it, the form asked about offices held in charities, not membership.

My application was quite brief, since that seemed to be all the form invited, and all I had the energy to produce. I'm sure others will have had more to tell and more to offer. Good luck to any PR members appointed.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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Note: new answers added to the Q&A page of the MEGA site [as the page displayed on 14 December 2016] are being interspersed amongst the original answers.

So if you are checking the site periodically for new Questions and Answers you may need to skim all of them in order to spot newly added ones. They are not numbered or dated.

I have highlighted my own Qs in red. And note, a potentially undisclosed PAG membership.
Not good.


http://www.megaresearch.me.uk/qanda/

Q & A page:

NEW QUESTION What is the plan to address the clearance of the MEGA study by an NHS Ethics Board/Committee or similar independent body?


As with all studies involving human subjects, the appropriate ethical permissions will have to be sought. The funders will not permit a study to be funded or proceed unless they are in place.

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NEW QUESTION Many people with ME/CFS do not have contact with specialist NHS ME/CFS clinics. So only using the clinics to recruit is likely to give an unrepresentative sample. How will the researchers address this?

For this application we need to be as sure as possible, with limited funds, that those who are included, using post-exertional malaise as an essential criterion, have ME/CFS. We know that up to 50% of those referred to specialist ME/CFS services do not have ME/CFS. If we accepted patients from other clinics into MEGA, we would need to pay for them to be seen by a specialist ME/CFS doctor if they were to be included in this application. We will not have the funds to do this at this early stage. Recruiting from the NHS Specialist services does not stop patients from other clinics being referred in to the specialist services.

In the future, we would like to apply for additional funding to collect samples from patients who are not part of the NHS clinics. We can either apply for funding for them to be seen by a ME/CFS specialist or we may look at using these samples without specialist review in studies, for example, in replication studies.

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NEW QUESTION I have recovered enough from ME/CFS to work full-time and be physically active – would my data be of use, and if so how can I be include in the study?

This will be decided later. It is possible that we will use patients who have recovered for the genetic studies (as genes don’t change). However, we would want to be sure that they had ME/CFS.

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NEW QUESTION Profs George Davey Smith and Chris Ponting have explained the need for a large sample size of 10,000 in order to produce statistically significant results for studies of this type. However, it also seems possible – indeed probable – that people diagnosed with ME/CFS may include those suffering from a number of different illnesses. If, say, people who are severely affected and do not get better were suffering from a different illness to others with the same diagnosis, how many of those people would it be necessary to include in the study in order for that illness to be accurately differentiated using the methods you propose?

The study is powered on investigating the association of genes with ME/CFS. It will not be powered to investigate the association of genes with other conditions. However, as we are collecting samples that will allow us to look at all the -omics from genes to metabolites, we will be able to investigate different biological pathways in sub-groups of ME/CFS as well as different illnesses. All of this will require additional funding in the future and is a long way away. The number required will depend on the investigation planned and the strength of the genetic association.

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NEW QUESTION It is good to see that you propose for all participants to have post-exertional malaise – how do you define post-exertional malaise?

This will be defined at a later stage.

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NEW QUESTION Will people who meet the NICE criteria for ME/CFS but who have additional related problems (eg. POTs, hypotension, fibromyalgia, IBS) will be included in the MEGA study?

These people will be included.

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UPDATED QUESTION What data will you collect?

We will collect symptom data on all patients to allow us to identify which patients will be identified as having ME/CFS using different diagnoses. We will also include data on fatigue, disability and co-morbid anxiety/depression. We would like to collect detailed data on pain. How much data we collect will depend on what our Patient Advisory Groups say will be acceptable to consenting patients and how much funding we get. We are concerned about placing demands on patients by asking too many questions so the Patient Advisory Group will be asked to monitor and advise on the limits for patient assessment by questions and other assays.

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NEW QUESTION Will you be measuring orthostatic intolerance?

We would like to but this depends on whether the additional costs are perceived by the funders as being justified.

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NEW QUESTION Will you use the Bell Disability Scale?

We haven’t decided yet. This will be decided at a later stage and will depend in part on whether this is perceived by the funders as being justified.

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NEW QUESTION Are you quantifying the physical functional capacity of donors?

How we define physical function will be decided at a later stage.

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UPDATED QUESTION How will this study work with/use the existing UK ME/CFS Biobank of tissue samples?

The existing biobank does not have enough patients to answer the questions that we want to answer. In addition, we need all the patients to be recruited using the same criteria in the first instance. We also need additional biobanks to replicate the work. Researchers should have access to multiple biobanks.

We believe that collaboration is very important, particularly in terms of replication. The MEGA data and samples will be available to other researchers to use. We hope we will be able to test whether results from MEGA are replicated in other studies.

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NEW QUESTION Why is a new patient advisory group for the children’s arm of MEGA not being recruited is the same way as the adults Patient Advisory Group?

Recruiting a children and young people’s Patient Advisory Group presents considerable challenges, as this patient group and their parents and carers frequently do not have the capacity and/or time to be part of such a group. So the MEGA team have decided to use an existing group, funded by the National Institute for Health Research as part of work being done at the University of Bristol. The group has been running for three years, with new participants recruited each year. Members are children, young people, parents, carers and young adults who had ME/CFS as a child, all of whom have expressed an interest in helping research, and they have contributed to and advised on a wide variety of projects including qualitative and epidemiological studies.

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NEW QUESTION Why has the recruitment of the Patient Advisory Group been done on such a short time scale?

We wanted people with M.E. to have input into the application from the very beginning. The first draft of an application will be submitted in January. This has very little detail on the science, but we need to get the costs right. We want to involve people with M.E. in those decisions. The Patient Advisory Group will not be expected to make decisions on every detail of the application at this stage because we are only seeking feedback on whether the funders are interested in an application of this nature.

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NEW QUESTION Can you provide assurances that all applications will be passed on to the selection process?

Action for M.E. is administering the MEGA Patient Advisory Group application process and as such will pass on all applications received by the deadline to the recruitment panel. No-one at Action for M.E. is involved in decision-making about who will and will not be recruited, and the applications will be anonymised before being sent to the decision-making panel, comprising representatives from the ME Association and ME Research UK and a scientist from the MEGA team, Prof Paul Little.

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NEW QUESTION Does the MEGA Team intend to publish the names of those who have accepted a seat on the Patient Advisory Group and by what date does MEGA anticipate publishing the confirmed membership list?

We will discuss this with the Patient Advisory Group and publish names if they are willing for us to do so.


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NEW QUESTION Does MEGA project have a Steering Group overseeing the project?

A Steering or Oversight Group has not been established as there is as yet no project to oversee. If MEGA is funded, this will be established in due course.

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user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
NEW QUESTION Why has the recruitment of the Patient Advisory Group been done on such a short time scale?

We wanted people with M.E. to have input into the application from the very beginning. The first draft of an application will be submitted in January. This has very little detail on the science, but we need to get the costs right. We want to involve people with M.E. in those decisions. The Patient Advisory Group will not be expected to make decisions on every detail of the application at this stage because we are only seeking feedback on whether the funders are interested in an application of this nature.

What a silly answer without consideration of the science how can you get the costs right.

From these answers it sounds like it is Mega but compromising on things necessary for good science (like a random sample) to save money.

The more they say the worse they seem.
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
UPDATED QUESTION How will this study work with/use the existing UK ME/CFS Biobank of tissue samples?

The existing biobank does not have enough patients to answer the questions that we want to answer. In addition, we need all the patients to be recruited using the same criteria in the first instance. We also need additional biobanks to replicate the work. Researchers should have access to multiple biobanks.

We believe that collaboration is very important, particularly in terms of replication. The MEGA data and samples will be available to other researchers to use. We hope we will be able to test whether results from MEGA are replicated in other studies.




Does this mean that the existing bio bank samples will not be included because they will not have been recruited using NICE

If NICE guidelines commthemselves over turn NICE criteria as valid or suitable for U.K. General use following review and comparisons with IOM criteria etc where does this get left?
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
UPDATED QUESTION What data will you collect?
We will collect symptom data on all patients to allow us to identify which patients will be identified as having ME/CFS using different diagnoses. We will also include data on fatigue, disability and co-morbid anxiety/depression. We would like to collect detailed data on pain. How much data we collect will depend on what our Patient Advisory Groups say will be acceptable to consenting patients and how much funding we get. We are concerned about placing demands on patients by asking too many questions so the Patient Advisory Group will be asked to monitor and advise on the limits for patient assessment by questions and other assays.


This to me is a possible PACE trial activity monitor Cop out. Most patients with accommodations can answer questions if people wants to know more, in depth often
 
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Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
With the continual emphasis on things being a long way off I am struck by just how much the uk establishment are not responding with urgency to need but just continuing the path of "wouldn't it be nice to one day understand more about different types of fatigue "
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
It is in Esther Crawley's interests to keep the BPS myth going for as long as possible, and tie up funds for biomedical research in a huge project that for the present only promises to collect samples and questionnaire data, with vague promised for future -omics when 12000 patients have been found.

It is also in her interests that the biobank they set up uses a definition of CFS and a sampling method not recognised anywhere else in the world so that no international researchers will want to use it, and savvy UK biomedical researchers who do their homework will not want to use it either.

When I applied to be part of the MEGA PAG it was with the intention of doing my best to get this message across - to insist that Crawley must not be involved, and that BPS people have no say in what questionnaire data is collected and what definition is used. I knew I was on a hiding to nothing, but thought it might be worth a try.

The more i read of their answers to questions so far, the more I think the best thing would be for the project to be abandoned, and for the biomedical researchers involved to be encouraged to apply for funding themselves to do proper studies using the existing biobank, learning from and co-operating with the real experts like Naviaux, Davis, Armstrong, Bateman, Klimas, Fluge and Mella etc.

I hope those on the PAG will be able to get this message across.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
there are two other major issues with MEGA which I can't get my head around:

1. The budget and the actual scope of the study. We have heard the number £5 million, for 10,000 or 12,000 patients. What does this mean? With the £5 million budget, will we in fact mostly get a lot of questionnaires done (which will then be processed by Esther Crawley)?

2. I dont see how enrolling 10,000 patients with various fatiguing illlnesses (which will be the case when the NHS clinics are used) will result in a strong signal for actual ME. Wouldn't you need 10,000 patients with actual, CCC-defined ME to get a strong signal which tells you something about ME?

The more I see of communications coming out of the CMRC and MEGA team the clearer it is to me that they have no real idea what they are doing other than trying to secure money for certain researchers. The token involvement of a patient group at a point in time when one assumes the first grant application has already been written and submitted to local administrative offices is a farce. It reveals a complete lack of respect for the patient community. As far as I can see the initial bid will be for the amount they are allowed to bid for, which will be quite small. They have made it clear they have no real idea what they are going to do with that money other than set up in direct competition with the existing Biobank which is about five years further down the line and needs continued funding. This seems to me destructive and irresponsible. This is no sense a 'collaborative' venture'. It is driven by self-interest as far as I can see. I do not hesitate to say that because it is the norm in science these days - one of the reasons I retired to do something else.

To my mind the CMRC is not a 'big tent'. It is almost totally isolated from the international research community. As far as I know it has no involvement in European interactions and precious little support from the US, if any. I actually think the ME community would be better off without it if it is going to behave in this sort of incompetent and destructive fashion. And I have no axe to grind on this. None of it makes any difference to me doing my birdwatching and philosophy. I just get angry when people behave like this.

If I was involved in a charity I would not wish to be associated with the CMRC. But I respect those who feel differently about the best way forward.
 

NexusOwl

Spanish advocate
Messages
49
Location
Spain
Someone said these kind of websites can be used as a proof of relevance. I don't know if you've discussed it around here before, but the less you visit the MEGA website, the less chances the research has to be done.

About the data collection issue... that answer alone is enough to prove they are just psychoblabbers trying to impose the biopsychosocial model again and we should all be joining the OMEGA petition by now.
 

Jo Best

Senior Member
Messages
1,032
There are so many red flags that this is BPS-driven. Business as usual with the focus on the symptoms of fatigue and pain, which are key features of 'Persistent Physical Symptoms', and of course, anxiety and depression. The highly patronising excuse that they anticipate being restricted by not wanting to put too much burden on the patients, when in fact, their research questions will be restricted by design to provide the answers they know in advance that they want - more policy-based evidence gathering just like the PACE trial.
 

Jo Best

Senior Member
Messages
1,032
MEGA created their website at the suggestion of patients, and someone on the Opposing MEGA petition thread used the Opposing MEGA site as an example of how quickly it can be set up, and I see that MEGA have used Wordpress, like Opposing MEGA - https://opposingmega.wordpress.com/
Responses from Stephen Holgate and CMRC colleagues so far indicate that MEGA is likely to put a positive spin on the interest shown, regardless of how much of the traffic is driven by concern.
We will be moving to a MEGA website in the next week or two so that we can better manage content and improve access to information for those that don't wish to sign up to support this study but are keen to hear the latest news. https://www.change.org/p/support-th...-its-application-to-major-uk-research-funders
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
The more I see of communications coming out of the CMRC and MEGA team the clearer it is to me that they have no real idea what they are doing other than trying to secure money for certain researchers. The token involvement of a patient group at a point in time when one assumes the first grant application has already been written and submitted to local administrative offices is a farce. It reveals a complete lack of respect for the patient community. As far as I can see the initial bid will be for the amount they are allowed to bid for, which will be quite small. They have made it clear they have no real idea what they are going to do with that money other than set up in direct competition with the existing Biobank which is about five years further down the line and needs continued funding. This seems to me destructive and irresponsible. This is no sense a 'collaborative' venture'. It is driven by self-interest as far as I can see. I do not hesitate to say that because it is the norm in science these days - one of the reasons I retired to do something else.

To my mind the CMRC is not a 'big tent'. It is almost totally isolated from the international research community. As far as I know it has no involvement in European interactions and precious little support from the US, if any. I actually think the ME community would be better off without it if it is going to behave in this sort of incompetent and destructive fashion. And I have no axe to grind on this. None of it makes any difference to me doing my birdwatching and philosophy. I just get angry when people behave like this.

If I was involved in a charity I would not wish to be associated with the CMRC. But I respect those who feel differently about the best way forward.

I'd like to see the above printed out and stapled to every telegraph pole between Southampton and Bristol.
 
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