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Need opinions on four supplements (PQQ, ALA, B-5 and L-Carnitine)

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I have been doing a lot of research and want to get some feedback from you guys re: a few potential supplements (and if I try them, it will be low dose and one at a time!)

I am tagging a few people @zzz @heapsreal @caledonia @Sushi who might know about these supplements but no pressure to respond and if you don't know the answers, no worries!!! I would love to hear from anyone who has tried these supplements (good or bad.)

1) PQQ or "Pyrroloquinoline Quinone" which is claimed to actually stimulate the growth of new mitochondria and helps mitos to divide into new cells. It also said it is cardio-protective and given after heart attacks similar to a beta blocker. It sounds like a miracle supplement for someone with CFS if true.

2) Alpha Lipoic Acid- It is supposed to help with mitochondria (maybe similar to CoQ10 which I already take) but not sure of the mechanism?

3) B-5 or Pantathenic Acid- I read that it can increase blood pressure which is something I need but will not be relevant for everyone. Someone e-mailed me that it also helped with angina type episodes and I really appreciated that info. I am afraid it could be too stimulating since I seem to have trouble with the B vitamins and this seems to only come in a high dose. Does anyone recommend a specific dose of this?

4) L-Carnitine- I think this is also for mitochondria and to create energy. I tried it 3x about a year ago and had a horrible reaction (severe nausea, insomnia, and felt agitated) but it did give me energy. So, I am now wondering if I tried it at a much lower dose if it could help? I tried 500 mg which was clearly too high but I wonder if I took a micro dose (maybe 50 mg?) how it would be? But if it could give me tachycardia, I do not want to mess with it.

Even if you have only tried one of the four, I would love to hear any feedback. Thanks in advance as always!!!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
@Gingergrrl

I only have time for a couple of quick comments now...

There are several types of Carnitine. It is used to support several actions--including methylation. You might want to check which form you took.

Alpha Lipoic acid had pluses and minuses. The main caution is that if you take it, it needs to be taken about every 4 hours (someone else correct me if I am wrong about the hours) because it binds heavy metals (like mercury) and if it is "carrying its load" and runs out of steam (you have gone too long between doses) it will drop the heavy metals--sometimes in a worse place than it found them.

Sushi
 

caledonia

Senior Member
1) PQQ or "Pyrroloquinoline Quinone"
2) Alpha Lipoic Acid-
3) B-5 or Pantathenic Acid-
4) L-Carnitine-

1 PQQ - I'm not familiar with this

2 ALA - this is supposed to be a good one to take, but if you do, take it easy, no more than a few mgs or mcg (whatever the unit measurement is for this?). ALA will detoxify mercury, so it may cause you to feel bad as the mercury is coming out. Also Andrew Cutler has a specific protocol for taking this, and if you don't take it according to his protocol, supposedly, you may make mercury go to the brain. Yasko has patients supplement with teeny tiny sprinkles and that is working ok for me.

3 B-5 - all the B vitamins work together, so it's best to get the B5 within a B complex, but again, very low and slow.

4 L-carnitine is a good one for mito function. There are two kinds L carnitine fumarate and acetyl l carnitine. Some people do better with one form over the other. I was taking 1/2 of an L carnitine fumarate for awhile and it was a bit helpful for energy, but don't need to any more as I've proceeded with methylation supps. I was starting to get an overly revved up feeling so I discontinued. Nausea sounds more like an allergic type reaction?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergrrl

There are several types of Carnitine. It is used to support several actions--including methylation. You might want to check which form you took.

Alpha Lipoic acid had pluses and minuses. The main caution is that if you take it, it needs to be taken about every 4 hours (someone else correct me if I am wrong about the hours) because it binds heavy metals (like mercury) and if it is "carrying its load" and runs out of steam (you have gone too long between doses) it will drop the heavy metals--sometimes in a worse place than it found them.

@Sushi, thank you and I think the Carnitine that I tried was called acetyl-l-carnitine but I don't have it anymore. I will investigate ALA further before trying it and had not heard about the four hour issue. I do not have heavy metal issues that I know of and I have never had any mercury fillings (unless there is some other way to get them?)
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
I was taking PQQ before I became ill. It gave me a little bit of a caffeine buzz-like feeling the first few times I took it but that went away. I haven't been taking it since becoming ill, I'm a bit scared to start taking it again now that I seem to be sensitive to everything.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
2 ALA - this is supposed to be a good one to take, but if you do, take it easy, no more than a few mgs or mcg (whatever the unit measurement is for this?). ALA will detoxify mercury, so it may cause you to feel bad as the mercury is coming out. Also Andrew Cutler has a specific protocol for taking this, and if you don't take it according to his protocol, supposedly, you may make mercury go to the brain. Yasko has patients supplement with teeny tiny sprinkles and that is working ok for me.

3 B-5 - all the B vitamins work together, so it's best to get the B5 within a B complex, but again, very low and slow.

4 L-carnitine is a good one for mito function. There are two kinds L carnitine fumarate and acetyl l carnitine. Some people do better with one form over the other. I was taking 1/2 of an L carnitine fumarate for awhile and it was a bit helpful for energy, but don't need to any more as I've proceeded with methylation supps. I was starting to get an overly revved up feeling so I discontinued. Nausea sounds more like an allergic type reaction?

@caledonia Thank you (as always!) and I was curious about your experience with ALA compared to Sushi's? Do you take tiny sprinkles of it every four hours like Sushi said or just once a day? I have no clue and just gathering info.

Do you have a B-complex Vit that you recommend that does not have B-12 or Folate in it? I tried to research this and read a lot of old posts but got too confused.

Also, knowing that I had over-methylation, which carnitine do you think would be better for me (or do you think I should stay away from it, even at a micro dose, b/c I had a bad reaction in the past?) I am leaning toward not trying this one again.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I was taking PQQ before I became ill. It gave me a little bit of a caffeine buzz-like feeling the first few times I took it but that went away. I haven't been taking it since becoming ill, I'm a bit scared to start taking it again now that I seem to be sensitive to everything.

@halcyon What led you to try PQQ before you were ill? Do you remember what dose you took? I definitely do not want anything with a caffeine buzz feeling so this may not be for me and I am sensitive to everything, too.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
@Sushi, thank you and I think the Carnitine that I tried was called acetyl-l-carnitine but I don't have it anymore. I will investigate ALA further before trying it and had not heard about the four hour issue. I do not have heavy metal issues that I know of and I have never had any mercury fillings (unless there is some other way to get them?)

Most of us probably have heavy metal issues--whether or not you have had mercury fillings. There is a considerable environmental exposure to heavy metals. Fish is the one most publicly discussed. Many of us have had our levels of heavy metals tested and I don't remember anyone who didn't have "a burden." Reducing the heavy metal burden is often a part of protocols for ME/CFS.

Heavy metals have a role in "protecting viruses," if I remember correctly, but someone else will need to elaborate on that one!

Sushi
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
@Gingergrrl
There are some reputable studies on ALA carrying mercury to the brain and "dumping it there." This is not something worth risking--so the right protocol is very important if you are considering ALA!

Sushi
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Heavy metals have a role in "protecting viruses," if I remember correctly, but someone else will need to elaborate on that one! Sushi

Wow, I did not know any of that! Thank you.

@Gingergrrl There are some reputable studies on ALA carrying mercury to the brain and "dumping it there." This is not something worth risking--so the right protocol is very important if you are considering ALA! Sushi

I will skip ALA for now b/c I don't know anything about the protocol and don't want to mess around with anything that could make me worse!
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
@halcyon What led you to try PQQ before you were ill? Do you remember what dose you took? I definitely do not want anything with a caffeine buzz feeling so this may not be for me and I am sensitive to everything, too.
I was taking it to try and combat excessive daytime sleepiness and fatigue I had been battling with for years. I was also taking ALCAR and CoQ10 at the time to good effect.

I took Jarrow brand at 20mg once a day. It looks like they also have 10mg capsules. The feeling wasn't super intense and only lasted for maybe 20 minutes.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@halcyon Thank you and I would definitely try the 10 mg capsules if I try it at all. I had not heard about PQQ on the board so was very curious if anyone else had tried it. I'm guessing not a lot of people have but I could be wrong.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I wanted to add one more question for anyone reading this thread- is there a general B-complex that anyone recommends that does not have folic acid or B-12 in it? Also, how do you know with the labels if they have the right proportion of B vitamins as each one is so different!!!
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
1) PQQ or "Pyrroloquinoline Quinone" which is claimed to actually stimulate the growth of new mitochondria and helps mitos to divide into new cells. It also said it is cardio-protective and given after heart attacks similar to a beta blocker. It sounds like a miracle supplement for someone with CFS if true.

A naturopath suggested giving PQQ a try and it gives me an energy boost on the days I take it.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/heal...inone-brain-health-anti-aging-supplement.html

I only take PQQ before 2 p.m. Several supplement manufacturers make it and I find the Swanson brand (in capsules) is as good as any. Source Naturals makes a tablet form of PQQ and since the 20mg dose is the best buy, I can cut those tablets in half if I just want a 10mg dose. At 20mg/day, it takes me 2 to 3 days to feel the effects kick in.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
@caledonia Thank you (as always!) and I was curious about your experience with ALA compared to Sushi's? Do you take tiny sprinkles of it every four hours like Sushi said or just once a day? I have no clue and just gathering info.

I inadvertently tried 100mg of ALA one time, and got uncomfortable "metal detox" symptoms, so I discontinued right away. Since then I've learned about the Cutler thing about proper dosing (if you're taking larger doses like 100mg). Now I take a minute amount in Yasko's All In One multi, twice a week. Since I'm only taking 1/64 of one pill twice a week (a full dose being 6 pills per day), the amount I'm getting is extremely minute.

I won't be trying a Cutler protocol until all my metals are out via methylation, and my detox system is working much, much better.

Do you have a B-complex Vit that you recommend that does not have B-12 or Folate in it? I tried to research this and read a lot of old posts but got too confused.

Yes! there is one developed by Ben Lynch called B Minus - http://www.seekinghealth.com/b-minus-100-vegetarian-capsules-seeking-health.html

Also, knowing that I had over-methylation, which carnitine do you think would be better for me (or do you think I should stay away from it, even at a micro dose, b/c I had a bad reaction in the past?) I am leaning toward not trying this one again.

Carnitine is a mitochondrial issue, not a methylation issue per se.

If you took the Nutreval test, you could see what your Kreb's cycle is doing, and see if you really need carnitine or not.

Otherwise, you're left with trial and error and/or muscle testing to see if you should be taking it or not. And of course, starting with extremely small doses so if you get a bad reaction, it's minimized.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
A naturopath suggested giving PQQ a try and it gives me an energy boost on the days I take it.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/heal...inone-brain-health-anti-aging-supplement.html

I only take PQQ before 2 p.m. Several supplement manufacturers make it and I find the Swanson brand (in capsules) is as good as any. Source Naturals makes a tablet form of PQQ and since the 20mg dose is the best buy, I can cut those tablets in half if I just want a 10mg dose. At 20mg/day, it takes me 2 to 3 days to feel the effects kick in.

@CFS_for_19_years Thank you for the info and Swanson was the brand that I was looking at in the 10 mg dose. I wanted to ask you, when you said it takes 2-3 days for the effects to kick in, what specifically do you notice? Does it give you energy in a good way or is it a jittery caffeinated feeling like someone else described?

Also, could you clarify, do you take it every day but don't feel anything for 2-3 days or do you only take it every 2-3 days (like pulsing the supplement?)

Thanks again!
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Yes! there is one developed by Ben Lynch called B Minus - http://www.seekinghealth.com/b-minus-100-vegetarian-capsules-seeking-health.html

Carnitine is a mitochondrial issue, not a methylation issue per se.

If you took the Nutreval test, you could see what your Kreb's cycle is doing, and see if you really need carnitine or not.

Otherwise, you're left with trial and error and/or muscle testing to see if you should be taking it or not. And of course, starting with extremely small doses so if you get a bad reaction, it's minimized.

@caledonia Thank you so much for the referral for the "B Minus" and it is exactly what I was looking for and am going to order it. As far as the Carnitine, I am leaning toward not trying it again right now as I can't add so many new things into the mix at once. My feeling is to try the B Minus complex and the PQQ (and skip the ALA and Carnitine for now.)

Thanks to you and all who answered this thread, it has been really helpful.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
@CFS_for_19_years Thank you for the info and Swanson was the brand that I was looking at in the 10 mg dose. I wanted to ask you, when you said it takes 2-3 days for the effects to kick in, what specifically do you notice? Does it give you energy in a good way or is it a jittery caffeinated feeling like someone else described?

Also, could you clarify, do you take it every day but don't feel anything for 2-3 days or do you only take it every 2-3 days (like pulsing the supplement?)

Thanks again!

Here's the other 20mg option if you want to compare prices - these tablets are easy to cut in half:
www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-PQQ-Mind-Tabs/dp/B00BQS87D2

PQQ gives me alertness, clears away some brain fog and makes me feel less sleepy. For instance, without PQQ I can barely write anything on this forum, but with PQQ I can write a few messages with some coherence several times a day. When I was riding a senior van without PQQ I would be in my own little world and not talk to the driver. With PQQ I would initiate conversations and keep up my end of the conversation.

I try to take PQQ every day, but I don't take it on days that I get up too late. (I've been known to get up at 2 and 3 p.m.) Ideally, I would take PQQ every day. There's no need to pulse it.

I would recommend starting out at 10mg/day for three days and then see how you feel. If you haven't noticed much benefit, then I would go to 20mg/day. That way, you won't overdo it if it's going to give you a jittery feeling like some have described.

Very few supplements give me energy. This is one of the few.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@CFS_for_19_years Thank you so much for the additional info and I am definitely going to order the PQQ. My interest was that it can actually create new mitochondria and hoped it would have a long-term benefit but it sounds like you have a definite short-term benefit as well with increased energy. If it makes me jittery or gives me tachycardia then I won't be able to tolerate it but I feel this one is worth the risk to try! Thanks again.