Nattokinase and other fibrinolytics

[Mumbo_Jumbo]

Interested to hear from people who've tried Nattokinase (and Serrapeptase/Lumbrokinase). I'm currently trying Nattokinase. I jumped rather quickly up to 6000FUs and feel rough, but not sure if it's that or just PEM. But I'm wondering how long to try it for? What were your experiences with it?

 

[LINE]

I have favorable results with anti-fibrin approaches. This includes using a couple of runs with Plavix and baby aspirin, biofilm degrading enzymes which include natto and serrapeptase and my latest experiment with modified citrus pectin.

The science points pretty clearly that Galectin 3 is the molecule secreted from immune responses that cause microclotting. Moving the debris out of the body would help reduce the 'roughness'. Adequate water is the first thing that comes to mind, uses of antioxidants and some binders should help.

Pulsing may be something that helps, in other words, a few days on and a few off.

 

[datadragon]

I have experimented with both Nattokinase and Serrapeptase. Nattokinase I found useful at 2000fu and dropped my blood pressure as well as is a blood thinner. However if you take this, use caution and start with a small amount until you know how it will affect you and be aware of the dangers of blood thinners if your not high on the thick blood/clotting side currently. Even with genetic factors like MTHFR mutations causing high homocysteine your body may have low genetic vitamin K or some other ways to compensate when you dive deeply into the genetics. You then have a large list of external things that thin blood people dont consider I could add. Its all about balance. For that reason I urge caution in its use.

Serrapeptase https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7585045 is also interesting, although since it raised my blood pressure in later retries I didnt get to use it as much as I wanted to. Heres a review I posted on amazon back in 2018 when I first started trying it:

Serrapeptase has been used in Europe and Asia for over 25 years. I wonder what the life of the person was like however who found it. I mean It is produced by bacteria in the gut of silkworms and is used to digest their cocoons. I never looked at a silkworm and thought: hey! Lets ingest some of this and see what happens!
I prefer this source naturals product as I found taking 60,000 SPU's once a day or twice a day was more effective then 120,000 once a day. It has been shown to act as an anti-inflammatory and a pain-blocker too and works well! much like aspirin, ibuprofen and other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). Its effective for pain conditions such as osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, carpel tunnel, fibromyalgia, migraines, back pain, joint pain, and general inflammation. It may help alleviate pain by inhibiting the release of pain-inducing amines called bradykinin. So then I read more about it. It helps to thin mucus and I do have rhinitis, and found this works very well for improving the symptoms. And to top it off, It may enhance cardiovascular health by breaking down the protein by-products of blood coagulation called fibrin. It is able to dissolve the fibrin and other dead or damaged tissue without harming living tissue which could enable the removal of plaques without causing any harm to the inside of the arteries. I have found many benefits from its use so far and would recommend to try this brand. So lets all take a moment to thank the uber nerd who decided to be swallowing cocoon digesting enzymes instead of popping an aspirin...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So lets all take a moment to thank the uber nerd who decided to be swallowing cocoon digesting enzymes instead of popping an aspirin...

I have experimented with both Nattokinase

I take a 2000 Nattokinase every few days (with the intention of taking it more frequently).

It seems to really help loosen mucus and moisten my lungs.

and some binders should help.

How do you utilize binders?

 

[LINE]

I take a 2000 Nattokinase every few days (with the intention of taking it more frequently).

It seems to really help loosen mucus and moisten my lungs.


How do you utilize binders?

I use a Zeolite spray, chlorella, charcoal and sometimes EDTA. If you want specifics on which products work best (after many tests), let me know.

 

[heapsreal]

Anyone else found it good for headaches like an anti inflammatory??
Dosing once a day enough or how often should it be dosed??

 

[Tsukareta]

Tried it last year with grapeseed extract too but I didn't notice much improvement in my regular ME/CFS symptoms or energy level / PEM resilience. If I had to guess I would say that microclots are not responsible for CFS symptoms, and if they are present it may only be at certain times, and at those times we may feel different. I still take the grapeseed sometimes when I have a feeling my blood isn't flowing well e.g. cold hands, thumb actually goes numb in the middle joint no idea why, and I get weird pains in my chest muscles, seems to be related to PEM but I haven't experienced it for a month or so, its summer now so its not been as cold, my health has been all kinds of ***ed lately so this may not be representative of your experiences.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

If I had to guess I would say that microclots are not responsible for CFS symptoms, and if they are present it may only be at certain times

you might want to check out Dr. Aguirre-Chang's posts on PR - he has some protocols for helping you determine if micro clots are an issue (and some protocols for clearing clots etc...). I'll go try to find a link.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Like this thread:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...y-and-microclots-symptoms.88755/#post-2420122

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I use a Zeolite spray, chlorella, charcoal and sometimes EDTA. If you want specifics on which products work best (after many tests), let me know.

I have Zeolite; charcoal; chlorella

Can you suggest HOW to take a binder, relative to having consumed something likely to stimulate detox or hexing??

For example:

A) castor oil packs for about one hour- towards the end of the hour, I became QUITE woozy nauseated and it got worse from there. I even threw up. I'm now afraid to Do the packs.

so I propose 1) less surface area of castor oil packs for far less time (maybe only ten minutes_ and then 2) somehow take binders: but WHEN?


B) the new fabulous B-12 drops I bought....I only took a BUBBLE and when I took a single drop I got really WOOZY and Neuroimmune and felt AWFUL.

so I propose to go back to 1)only the bubble (less than a drop...can barely taste it); and 2) somehow take a binder but WHEN?

Binders I always assume are not when you're eating. And I can't go long with out eating.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The thing about binders that I don't understand is: they themselves cause detox and HERXING.

so one can overdo binders, correct?

 

[datadragon]

The thing about binders that I don't understand is: they themselves cause detox and HERXING.

so one can overdo binders, correct?

Mobilizing such as using chelators pull toxins from your tissues, fat cells, brain, organs, bones, and other areas of your body. Binders don’t do this. The #1 detox mistake most people make is NOT using a binder when they attempt detox. Detox symptoms can occur when toxins you’re mobilizing out of tissue storage sites get into the bloodstream. If you don’t use binders when detoxing you’re far more likely to experience detox reactions or herxheimer reactions like fatigue, brain fog, headache, nausea and more.

Bind: Once chelators pull toxins out of tissues, it’s important to “sponge them up” with a binder so they are not circulating freely only to lodge elsewhere in your body, particularly your brain. Some binders work only in the gut. Few binders mop up the bloodstream and get into cells.

Eliminate: You must support your body’s elimination pathways when using binders to remove heavy metals. Once the binders attach to the heavy metals, you want them to exit your body as soon as possible.

https://myersdetox.com/5-reasons-to-use-binders-for-safe-and-gentle-heavy-metal-detoxification/

I tried a number of them, personally most always gave me symptoms except acz nano extra strength zeolite which worked without giving me the bad symptoms. That one binds and eliminates through the kidney so its good when other pathways might not be optimal. Originally I was using like 4 sprays 1-2x a day but later realized even a single spray was working so its not always necessary to overdo it. I was able to lower mercury.

 

[LINE]

Correct, mobilization is different than elimination. Mobilization just moves the toxins from the storage sites, binders grab the toxin and escorts it out of the system. I concur that ACZ works well, it has worked well for me, probably 15 years of taking it. Binding the toxins prevents reabsorption.

 

[heapsreal]

Interested to hear from people who've tried Nattokinase (and Serrapeptase/Lumbrokinase). I'm currently trying Nattokinase. I jumped rather quickly up to 6000FUs and feel rough, but not sure if it's that or just PEM. But I'm wondering how long to try it for? What were your experiences with it?

How are you going on your Nattokinase?

I started serrapeptase 40000spu 2 days ago and doxycycline 5 days ago.

I'm trying this for a few of reasons. Serrapeptase to help with headaches and maybe reduce white matter lesions on brain mri. Also to maybe break up possible bacteria biofilms like mycoplasma etc as have had a constant slow drippy nose, which could also be some type of staph bacteria as well??? I will take any side benefits of reduce blood vessel plaque build up etc which could be related to the white matter lesions as well??

I have 3 months worth to see what happens.

Cheers.

 

[LINE]

I did a series on YT about Biofilm eradication which is my 2nd deep dive into that subject and practice. The connection between fibrinolytic and biofilm is surprisingly similar.

I started modified citrus pectin and biofilm degrading enzymes to counter the biofilm environment which is a modification of the other attempts I made. Surprisingly, this combination although designed for biofilm elimination is working as an anti-fibrin protocol. My abdomen is less swollen due to biofilm activity and I am more fluid/flexible that I have been in years. I do not think this is placebo.

Here is my series on biofilms, in the later videos, I cover some of the enzymes etc. I apologize for the unprofessional editing of the videos mostly due to time constraints.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA9aaXOpxIE3csmVpKKqi4NShxs3RKOXM

 

[heapsreal]

I did a series on YT about Biofilm eradication which is my 2nd deep dive into that subject and practice. The connection between fibrinolytic and biofilm is surprisingly similar.

I started modified citrus pectin and biofilm degrading enzymes to counter the biofilm environment which is a modification of the other attempts I made. Surprisingly, this combination although designed for biofilm elimination is working as an anti-fibrin protocol. My abdomen is less swollen due to biofilm activity and I am more fluid/flexible that I have been in years. I do not think this is placebo.

Here is my series on biofilms, in the later videos, I cover some of the enzymes etc. I apologize for the unprofessional editing of the videos mostly due to time constraints.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA9aaXOpxIE3csmVpKKqi4NShxs3RKOXM

Did you know what particular infection you were going after or taking an educated guess?
In my case, 75% of the time my blood work shows neutropenia. So awhile back guessed it could be mycoplasma as research at the time was showing 50% cfsers had mycoplasma infections. Treating it with doxycycline I got the typical initial die off reaction and then some improvement.

I also did a lyme abx protocol which helped and also babesia treatment with it which included bactrim and cryptolepis. I had some babesia symptoms like night sweats etc.

Testing is poor at best for these infections and another layer of impossible in Australia. But I have a list of abx and some herbals that I've responded well to in the past. I'm not sure if they can ever be eradicated but probably need to run a course when needed. But I've never really treated the biofilms other than flagyl, which can possibly treat biofilms. So I'm interested to see how the Serrapeptase goes. I will say I've had a constant headache all day, hopefully a good sign things are happening???

Cheers

 

[LINE]

Did you know what particular infection you were going after or taking an educated guess?
In my case, 75% of the time my blood work shows neutropenia. So awhile back guessed it could be mycoplasma as research at the time was showing 50% cfsers had mycoplasma infections. Treating it with doxycycline I got the typical initial die off reaction and then some improvement.

I also did a lyme abx protocol which helped and also babesia treatment with it which included bactrim and cryptolepis. I had some babesia symptoms like night sweats etc.

Testing is poor at best for these infections and another layer of impossible in Australia. But I have a list of abx and some herbals that I've responded well to in the past. I'm not sure if they can ever be eradicated but probably need to run a course when needed. But I've never really treated the biofilms other than flagyl, which can possibly treat biofilms. So I'm interested to see how the Serrapeptase goes. I will say I've had a constant headache all day, hopefully a good sign things are happening???

Cheers

Identification seems to be one of the most difficult thing to do - I finally gave up on identification and used broad spectrum treatments since there can be some general classifications (e.g. gram negative vs. gram positive vs protozoa etc).

I suspected mycoplasma infection and did testing through Garth Nicolson's labs - no identification of mycoplasma (6 species tested). I learned quite a bit about gastrointestinal bugs and did many stool samples and never had a hit until I did a specific test which found an odd protozoa parasite.

Protozoa treatments have some general connections and at the same time, there can be a wide variety of cocktails that people respond to. (side note: cocktails would be to employ a wide sweep of different antibiotics - in fact you may know Dr. Borody who is in Australia. He is known for his work in gastroenterology and came up with a few cocktails to treat protozoa parasites.

I tried a few combinations - the first one was Flagyl which is not a nice drug - but stacked that with some other antibiotics such as trimethoprim and some others. I did derivatives of Flagyl such as Secnindazole (sp) and Tinidazole. Multiple combinations.

I stumbled on Alinia (Nitazoxanide) with Paromomycin, and it was quite effective. But ran into problems since it reversed on me. That is why I started on massive research on resistant strategies. Those I cover in the video series.

The key to successful eradication is cocktails IMO- and observing signs of resistance. I feel quite strongly that biofilms are problematic and obviously harbor the infection which stimulates continual immune activity.

I made a couple of videos in that series that deal with antibiotic sensitivities which is important. It really becomes a game of chance in that different microbes will respond differently to given antibiotics. But you are correct, testing is very hit or miss and I have seen that not only with myself but with countless others. Some of those people did sophisticated and expensive testing protocols.

If you want to share, I would be curious of which antimicrobials tried and/or helped. I have a comprehensive catalogue of known antimicrobials (natural and pharma) and have a wide personal experience of known antimicrobials. I also know the telltale signs of resistance.

Again, I found it more beneficial to do sweeps of antimicrobials than rely on testing results.

Dr. Borody https://centrefordigestivediseases.com/about-us/professor-thomas-borody/

 

[heapsreal]

Identification seems to be one of the most difficult thing to do - I finally gave up on identification and used broad spectrum treatments since there can be some general classifications (e.g. gram negative vs. gram positive vs protozoa etc).

I suspected mycoplasma infection and did testing through Garth Nicolson's labs - no identification of mycoplasma (6 species tested). I learned quite a bit about gastrointestinal bugs and did many stool samples and never had a hit until I did a specific test which found an odd protozoa parasite.

Protozoa treatments have some general connections and at the same time, there can be a wide variety of cocktails that people respond to. (side note: cocktails would be to employ a wide sweep of different antibiotics - in fact you may know Dr. Borody who is in Australia. He is known for his work in gastroenterology and came up with a few cocktails to treat protozoa parasites.

I tried a few combinations - the first one was Flagyl which is not a nice drug - but stacked that with some other antibiotics such as trimethoprim and some others. I did derivatives of Flagyl such as Secnindazole (sp) and Tinidazole. Multiple combinations.

I stumbled on Alinia (Nitazoxanide) with Paromomycin, and it was quite effective. But ran into problems since it reversed on me. That is why I started on massive research on resistant strategies. Those I cover in the video series.

The key to successful eradication is cocktails IMO- and observing signs of resistance. I feel quite strongly that biofilms are problematic and obviously harbor the infection which stimulates continual immune activity.

I made a couple of videos in that series that deal with antibiotic sensitivities which is important. It really becomes a game of chance in that different microbes will respond differently to given antibiotics. But you are correct, testing is very hit or miss and I have seen that not only with myself but with countless others. Some of those people did sophisticated and expensive testing protocols.

If you want to share, I would be curious of which antimicrobials tried and/or helped. I have a comprehensive catalogue of known antimicrobials (natural and pharma) and have a wide personal experience of known antimicrobials. I also know the telltale signs of resistance.

Again, I found it more beneficial to do sweeps of antimicrobials than rely on testing results.

Dr. Borody https://centrefordigestivediseases.com/about-us/professor-thomas-borody/

Always done well with doxycycline and bactrim. Other abx augmentin, roxithromycin/azithromycin, preferred flagyl over tinidazole as it just seem to hit the bugs better. Bicillin injection ok. Ceftriaxone injections nothing. Rifampin had strong die off but improved after finishing the course. Herbals - artesunate, cryptolepis, berberine, seemed to have some good effects. Tried many other herbals like mushroom complexes, astragalus, Echinachea etc but not much effects from them.

The only treatment I used by itself was doxycycline and it was the first time I experimented going after mycoplasma actually after reading Dr Nicolsons work probably 20years ago. Everything has been atleast 2 treatments combined.

Intermittently I'd do courses of nystatin with probiotics. I have done a couple of courses of stronger antifungals followed by probiotics after finishing a treatment course to repopulate the gut. It's probably been 2 yrs since I've done any abx so I'm probably over due???

I never had any digestive/gut issue just fatigue issues and post nasal/sinus issues. As I said in previous post, low neutrophils led me to think there's something bacterial going on. Plus I'm also in the herpes virus sub group for cfsme (varicella, ebv, cmv) and low nk function.

 

[LINE]

Post nasal/sinus would suggest biofilm presence. I say this with some confidence as the sinus cavity is a mucous membrane and biofilms are known to inhabit mucous membranes. This of course is an educated guess.

Thanks for posting the protocols, I will look into later.

 

[LINE]

@heapsreal Based on what I know, I think you are correct about the bacterial idea as the primary issue. I think the astragalus, mushroom, echinacea type of herbs tend to be more immune enhancing rather than direct killing.

I have a list of known antibiotic type of herbs if you want - best if used in conjunction with other abx. I also have a YouTube link of someone in Colorado who used brushed sage and another herb to address his Lyme.