nancy klimas research

[dylemmaz]

i’m not sure if many people watched the institute for neuro immune medicines webinar today, but nancy klimas was the main speaker of the event. i’d seen her past updates on her research in to cfs and gulf war illness and this one did not offer much of anything new. nonetheless she’s doing some great research and is planning on starting a phase 1 clinical trial in me/cfs based off the homeostatic reboot that lead to complete recovery of gulf war illness inflicted mice.

what do you think of her research? do you think it’s promising?

has anyone tried the two drug combo that her modeling suggests would fix the dysfunctions caused by cfs?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

i’m not sure if many people watched the institute for neuro immune medicines webinar today,

i signed up but it was too early and I forgot to wake up early. My lap top was supposed to notify me but rather didn't.

I've been hopeful her group would get somewhere. I was not aware they had helped out sick mice. Hopefully this will: get posted on You Tube or something.

 

[xebex]

I’ve not seen it, can you post the mouse study?

Thanks

 

[dylemmaz]

i signed up but it was too early and I forgot to wake up early. My lap top was supposed to notify me but rather didn't.

I've been hopeful her group would get somewhere. I was not aware they had helped out sick mice. Hopefully this will: get posted on You Tube or something.

i believe you can find the replay of the video on the institute of nuero immune medicines website!

as to her helping sick mice, yes it’s true! from my understanding through supercomputer modeling she was able to find two fda approved drugs that would theoretically in a computer model move mice in a unwell sick state (gulf war illness) to a healthy normal state. no drug would work on its own and instead there needed to be a combination of at least two drugs to make this change. one which tampered down neuroinflammation and then another that followed by resetting hpa axis. they then took these two drugs in to an animal model and the drugs cured the mice of gulf war illness which is quite an accomplishment of course.

the same modeling suggests the drugs will work on cfs the same way it works in gulf war illness. so she is planning to go straight from computer modeling to human testing, and skipping the animal modeling part of it. shes able to do this because they are already fda approved drugs and considered safe. so the clinical trial should be starting soon.

id like to say that i’m not positive that what i said is 100% correct and accurate, so you should fact check me, but i’m pretty sure it is

 

[Rufous McKinney]

the same modeling suggests the drugs will work on cfs the same way it works in gulf war illness. so she is planning to go straight from computer modeling to human testing, and skipping the animal modeling part of it. shes able to do this because they are already fda approved drugs and considered safe. so the clinical trial should be starting soon.

well that is pretty exciting! And I like the idea of: skipping forward- we need to seriously get somewhere.

Alot of money has gone into GW Syndrome- and more time and I keep being HOPEFUL something happens there.

I have tried to figure out whats up with new studies from that funding source, but its hard to find the info.

 

[junkcrap50]

That's pretty disappointing that nothing really new was reported. She said like 3 years ago she was ready to start her Phase 1 trial and was recruiting patients. Seems like the studies have been taking forever. Perhaps there's been confusion when she's talking about Phase 1 for ME/CFS but Phase 2 for GWI. But she pretty much applies the info/data from GWI the same way to ME/CFS. And she's doing GWI first and still hasn't started on ME/CFS.

Are these these slides that Dr. Klimas used? Did she cover some of her initial results?
https://www.va.gov/RAC-GWVI/meetings/mar2021/klimas_RAC_march_2021_v2.pdf

Here are the best slides from the link above listing the most recent results:

Showed improvement but not a homeostatic reset. Which is good, but Phase 2 study won't be done until 2024. And that's only in GWI and only in one gender.

 

[PisForPerseverance]

Did you get a chance to see any of the other presentations? It's not on their website but I'm going to ask for a recording. There were a couple other I wanted to see

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The Gulf War ended 30 years ago. These poor people.

PBS news May 28, 2021 ran a story on a recent Burn Pit Victim. He passed away.
I find this a High Crime and Misdemeanor.

Reading Klimas' slides from the link above- anyone know what it means for a drug to be on formulary?

 

[rel8ted]

The Gulf War ended 30 years ago. These poor people.

PBS news May 28, 2021 ran a story on a recent Burn Pit Victim. He passed away.
I find this a High Crime and Misdemeanor.

Reading Klimas' slides from the link above- anyone know what it means for a drug to be on formulary?

It usually has to do with insurance tiers and if or how much they will pay.
From Google;

If a medication is “non-formulary,” it means it is not included on the insurance company's “formulary” or list of covered medications. ... Your Member Services phone number is usually listed on the back of your insurance card.

 

[Judee]

is planning on starting a phase 1 clinical trial in me/cfs based off the homeostatic reboot that lead to complete recovery of gulf war illness inflicted mice.

I always wonder though if they do not know the root cause of gulf war illness how can they truly replicate it in mice so that they can then undo it with a treatment?

I saw a study like that on ME as well. That makes no sense to me.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I always wonder though if they do not know the root cause of gulf war illness how can they truly replicate it in mice so that they can then undo it with a treatment?

thats a very good question......

Here are the best slides from the link above listing the most recent results:

the clinical symptoms data- only two categories showed a signficant improvement- in vitality and emo well being.

wonder what is vitality and emo well being? People are a little less- tired etc. but not significantly so, correct data?

It seems like these trials suggest its not working very well. I must be missing something.

 

[junkcrap50]

the clinical symptoms data- only two categories showed a signficant improvement- in vitality and emo well being.

wonder what is vitality and emo well being? People are a little less- tired etc. but not significantly so, correct data?

It seems like these trials suggest its not working very well. I must be missing something.

Yeah. I thought the same thing. Patient surveys aren't very good data and the data they did collect from the survey's didn't show any improvement. Even the biomarkers didn't show a whole lot. The astericks, *, showing signifant results, were only for differences between healthy controls and sick patients. Not necessarily differences between before and after treatment. Hopefully, looking at all the data as a system, shown in the 3rd picture, reveals more information and significance, which I think is more importance since it's such a complex model and illness, dependent on so many other things.

And the visual display of the system does show progress. Rightward movement from T0 to T8 and a huge move upward movement, showing a distinct change from treatment. And continued rightward movement after the effect from intervention fades. The movement, change, and improvement may be much more obvious visually if there were more datapoints over time, such as T0, T2,...T6,T8,T10,...T14,T16. Maybe if they repeat the treatment, there will be second similar triangle to the right of the T0-T8-16 triangle, even closer to healthy (a new T16/T0'-T8'-T16' triangle).

Interesting they are extending the treatment durations instead of a second or multiple rounds of the original treatment duration.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The astericks, *, showing signifant results, were only for differences between healthy controls and sick patients.

the graph says the data is comparing baseline with conditions at 6 and 16 weeks later. So thats seems like its the baseline of patients, improving after treatment. It would help to HAVE a paper to read.

And the visual display of the system does show progress.

Thanks I'll try to be more optimistic.

I used to be able to read those complex graphs when they were about my ecological research topics, and my cognitive brain worked then. If HEALTH is over on the far right- how is the trajectory north- showing an improvement?

 

[junkcrap50]

the graph says the data is comparing baseline with conditions at 6 and 16 weeks later. So thats seems like its the baseline of patients, improving after treatment. It would help to HAVE a paper to read.

You're right. The second picture with the other data is compared to healthy controls, not baseline. Don't know why I made that confusion.

I used to be able to read those complex graphs when they were about my ecological research topics, and my cognitive brain worked then. If HEALTH is over on the far right- how is the trajectory north- showing an improvement?

Well to be honest, I don't really know how to read these visual representations of data. I never learned about them or how to read them I interpreted the trajectory north as not necessarily an improvement (even though the far north datapoint is east of T0 and closer to health). But rather a distinct change and alternation of the system as the result of the intervention AND a big change away from their Hypercort, Hypotest, Th1 model (which I think is good, no? Interverntion changes in the direction they want: away from hypercort/hypotest/th1).

But who knows. It's still going to take years to see any results from Klimas's research - end of Phase 2 Trial in 2024, which likely will be late as everything gets delayed. Then many years for results of Phase 3. Sorry to end on a pessimistic note. Hopefully good data will lead to breakthrough and more research into her approach.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Sorry to end on a pessimistic note. Hopefully good data will lead to breakthrough and more research into her approach.

Well Klimas is still pursuing- so the data results must still be worth 1) pursuing and 2) funding. We will hope for progress and success! The second chart

I don't really know how to read these visual representations of data.

Those types of statistical diagrams are very useful and used alot in ecology. I used to make sense of them all the time.


I thought the following comment on the first graph was very funny:

"Emotional Well Being Improved Immediately After Protocol Ended"

(they stopped the protocol and all went home and lived happily there after)

 

[Pyrrhus]

Hopefully this will: get posted on You Tube or something.