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My Oxymatrine intake and my personal recovery

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Hello everybody,

I hope you all are good and well, or at least you are feeling okay!

I (male, 37 years old, from Germany, work full-time as a teacher) have created this thread in order to inform you about my personal recovery and the drugs/food supplements I have taken. Hoping that my thread helps some of you and brings a little bit of courage and confidence, I will now report what's been going on in my life in the last four years as a CFS patient.

Here is a short summary of my condition: I contracted a severe infection in June 2016, did not rest enough and was not able to overcome the disease. As a result, I developed a mild form of CFS and have had problems ever since. It has always been my intuition that there is still some kind of disease in my body with my immune system constantly fighting it. It took me three years to find out that I have elevated antibody levels for Coxsackievirus B5 (neutralisation test: IgG 1:320, test at IMD Frankfurt/Oder in Germany). Our forum has been of great help for me. In fact, without you and in particular without @Hip and @Judee, I would never have found out. It's a shame that the causes of a CFS condition are still a black box to most physicians. In Germany, there are 300,000 people suffering from CFS, and there are millions of patients all across the globe... :-/ Referring to the CFS scale, I "started out" as a 6 in 2016, then became a 7 and maybe got to be a 7,5 in 2019. I am pretty sure that a substantial part of my convalescence is due to the factors time and immune system. Nevertheless, there were and are things that helped me (please see in the following).

My symptoms: After the disease and in the first 1-2 years afterwards, I did not have enough energy, often felt a sore throat and a headache, and if this wasn't enough, I was quite susceptible to infections. In the course of time, my symptoms and my condition improved, but I still wasn't able to exercise. After doing sport - that always went surprisingly well - I developed symptoms. They started 1 to 4 days after the exercise. Furthermore, my symptoms flared up regularly. Of all the activities of a teacher, speaking was most exhausting for me since it regularly lead to a headache.

Drugs: Since I was under the impression of having caught EBV, I tried valacyclovir. I tolerated the drug very well, but obviously, it didn't have any effect. My EBV IgG's were/are 1:80, elevated but still quite normal. Apart from that, I received a vitamin C infusion every now and then (7,5 grams or 15 grams), I regularly take vitamin D pills, multi-vitamin pills and live a healthy diet with a lot of vitamins. Also, I try to have a regular sleep of 7 - 9 hours.

=> In March 2020, I started taking high-dose sodium selenite (600 - 800 mcg / day), which is supposed to have an antiviral effect against CVB5. Since I felt a slight scent of garlic with time, I lowered my dose of 200 - 400 mcg per day. I can fairly say that sodium selenite helped me a lot. I still felt my flu-like symptoms after exercising, but in general I was able to live a normal life at last. My current dose is 200 - 400 mcg per day.

=> On 22 June 2020, I started taking Oxymatrine. After informing myself thoroughly about the intake, I made my decision to start a course of Oxymatrine in spite of the fact that I am a "good" candidate for autoimmune tendencies (pollen allergy with a very mild form of asthma, irritable bowel disease or CIBD (I regularly take 1,5 - 3 grams of mesalazine, )).

I have tolerated Oxymatrine well. I am on a 5-pill-dose per day. After raising the dose, I sensed a slight increase in symptoms. Moreover, I feel symptoms when I wake up in the morning: Sometimes I feel a bit of a sore throat, a bit of a headache and limb pain, too. In addition to that, I often realise that I sweated on the previous night. After an hour or so, these symptoms have normally disappeared, so I take it a good sign with my immune system working at night. So far, I haven't run a fever, though. I have taken Oxymatrine for 1.5 months now.

I can happily report that my health status has improved. It's not that I have finally reached remission, but my life has become much better than it was in the past. While my s/o and I were on holiday, we also hiked for 3 hours and made an e-bike tour of 4 hours with pauses). Yesterday, I exercised 40 minutes on my exercise bike (average pulse of approx. 100 b/min).

I have to admit that I now and then sense a slight form a limb pain and headache after the exercises, but so far I have been able to live with those symptoms quite well. It is hard to say where I find myself on the CFS scale now, but with a little bit of confidence I suppose I can say that I am a solid 8,5 with days on which I feel like a 9. This is absolutely awesome!! Of course, it is still my wish to achieve full recovery and turn into a 10, but I am more than thankful that I have been able to make progress in the past four years. If all goes to plan, I will titrate my Oxymatrine dose up to 6 pills per day at the end of the week. At the beginning of last week, I probably had a gastric flu. It normally takes me two to three days to overcome it, but this time I had trouble getting rid of diarrhoea. For that reason, I increased my mesalazine dose to 4 gr. per day and finally got things under control. Occasionally I sense gastrointestinal symptoms, but I suppose they are due to my Oxymatrine intake. Healing earth can be beneficial here, as I was to learn. Please make sure, however, to wait at least two hours before and after the intake of it since it can bind drugs and thus lower their effect. The effect is comparable with the intake of an antacid.

Problems with asthma bronchiale I have not had so far. Every once in a while, my lungs feel a bit rough and I have to cough, but it's not bad. However, I could sense an increase in allergic symptoms to pollen. This must have been due to the fact that Oxymatrine boosts the immune system. On the days without exercise and not too much stress, I feel like a normal person without any health issues. For a long time, I didn't think it's possible for me to achieve such a level!

My questions for you:
Do you think that moderate exercise is harmful to my personal recovery? Dr. Chia, with whose reports I was carefully concerned, says that patients should avoid excessive exercise during the intake of Oxymatrine in order to lower the risk of relapse. On the other hand, as I see things as a layperson, it might also be good to strengthen your cardiovascular system by exercise. This, in turn, should have a positive impact on the capacities of one's immune system as well.

=> Do you think that one or two 40-minute mild/moderate exercises per week could do harm to my recovery or even prevent the Oxymatrine from being effective? Headache and limb pain, I can get a handle on quite well, but I certainly don't want to risk the efficiency of my Oxymatrine protocol! Today, the limb pain in my back, legs and arms is moderate (I exercised yesterday), but I am feeling okay nonetheless. Being active/doing sport certainly lifts the mood and helps on an emotional level. Needless to say that CFS patients always have to be very very cautious when it comes to being active and doing sports...

=> If I reach full or almost remission one day, how shalI lower my Oxymatrine intake?

=> What could be a good maintenance dose of Oxymatrine?

Do you have any experiences or insights? I would be pleased to read your answers. Please feel free to ask me whatever you would like to know. I will always be happy to help. This forum is just great, and I would love to contribute. My medical-biochemical competence is limited, but I have gained some sort of "how to deal with"-experience in the past four years.

Best wishes to all of you!!!

Johnny Minnesota
 
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Hip

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Do you think that one or two 40-minute mild/moderate exercises per week could do harm to my recovery?
Dr Chia does suggest his patients exercise a bit when they are on the road to recovery (but not for the severe patients). My guess is that provided you do not exercise to a point where you get PEM, it may be fine.



If I reach full or almost remission one day, how shalI lower my Oxymatrine intake?
Hard to say.

Once the full benefits of oxymatrine have manifested, Dr Chia says men can stop taking it after 3 to 6 months (though here he says to take it for 12 months). Women however usually have to continue taking oxymatrine, otherwise they relapse.1
 

Hip

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Does Oxy help with folks who have CFS from EBV?
I am not entirely sure. Dr Chia certainly uses oxymatrine for his enterovirus ME/CFS patients. I don't know if he uses it to treat herpesvirus ME/CFS.
 
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Hallo @hunter1899,

you could ask @Judee. Oxymatrine generally boosts the immune system, so I think it could be useful for fighting EBV, too.

As for EBV, I would recommend valacyclovir or, in serious cases, valgancyclovir. Dr. Martin Lerner (unfortunately he passed away two years ago) created a very interesting protocol on how to deal with a chronic EBV, HHV6- or CMV infection.

Best wishes
 
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As far as the Oxymatrine is concerned:

When I take my night-dose and go to bed, I sense some sort of headache roughly an hour after the intake. It's like my immune system starts working.

Moreover, I have realised that the intake of oxymatrine leads to a mild version of headache, sometimes in combination with limb pain. In general, I feel better than before, but there seems to be a constant performance of my immune system with slightly less strong and slightly stronger periods . It's not that my symptoms got worse gradually, and I havent' been able to run a fever so far. It's more a constant process that seems to be taking place at the same level. Only after increasing my dose, my symptoms feel stronger for a short time.

Please feel free to share your experiences with Oxymatrine.

Best wishes and all the very best to you

Johnny Minnesota

P.S.: If there is anybody who needs support for Germany (e. g. testing at IMD lab in Frankfurt/Oder), feel free to contact me. I'll be happy to help (translation, phone calls etc.).
 
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Update:

On the night of Thursday/Friday last week I developed an infection and got sick. In all probability, it's a common cold with the symptoms of a sore throat, a headache and a rhinitis. I hadnt' been sick for seven months, so things were going well. I could overcome the sore throat quite fast, but I have felt rather tired and still sick/unfit for some days now. Normally, I can overcome a cold within three days, but this time it seems to be taking a little longer.

Do you think it could be due to my Oxymatrine intake? Oxymatrine creates a boost for the immune system, so actually I should be able to recover in a short time. Any idea why it is taking longer this time. It's not that am still feeling bad, but haven't managed to get to my former level.

Could it be that Oxymatrine makes the immune system continue to work, even though the infection has already been overcome successfully?

First time when I realised the Oxymatrine boosts the immune system was when my allergy to pollen was a bit stronger than in the years before.

Best wishes to all of you!!
 
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Pyrrhus

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First time when I realised the Oxymatrine boosts the immune system was when my allergy to pollen was a bit stronger than in the years before.
I had a similar experience. When I was taking Equilibrant, I developed a hypersensitivity to a moisturizer that I had used for years. When I stopped the Equilibrant, the hypersensitivity went away.
 
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I had a similar experience. When I was taking Equilibrant, I developed a hypersensitivity to a moisturizer that I had used for years. When I stopped the Equilibrant, the hypersensitivity went away.
Hello and thanks for your answer!

Did you also notice a stronger disease process when having a cold, for instance?

Also, very importantly, did you experience positive effects of the intake? Did you recover?

Best wishes
 

Pyrrhus

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Did you also notice a stronger disease process when having a cold, for instance?
I think so, but I don't really remember, it was a long time ago.

Also, very importantly, did you experience positive effects of the intake?
At first, I thought there might have been some positive effect, but in the end it didn't help me.

Best wishes.
 
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Hello everybody,
(@Hip, @mitoMAN )


So weird.... :-/

Maybe you know what's been going on?!

I have taken sodium selenite and oxymatrine for four months now. I can't say my intake helped me reach a new stage, but the two supplements definitely helped me. My condition often changes, but sometimes I am a solid 8.5, which is great. I started a course of Arbidol (4 x 200 mg per day) five days ago. I feel okay, but it could be that I develop a slight form of a headache after the intake. In any case, I am going to take Arbidol for four or eight weeks at least. Also, I had another blood work done. Here's a thing:

My antibody levels in summer 2019 according to a neutralisation test (my infection was in summer 2016):
Coxsackie B3-IgG 1:20
Coxsackie B4-IgG: 1:80
Coxsackie B5-IgG: 1:320

Now my current levels (October 2020):
Coxsackie B4: higher than 1:640
Coxsackie B5: 1:160

That does not make any sense to me. Why have my CVB-4 antbody levels gone up, whereas my CVB5 levels have gone down? Could it be due to my oxymatrine intake?

Best wishes

Johnny Minnesota
 
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Cipher

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My antibody levels in summer 2019 according to a neutralisation test (my infection was in summer 2016):
Coxsackie B3-IgG 1:20
Coxsackie B4-IgG: 1:80
Coxsackie B5-IgG: 1:320
It might be a typo, but a neutralization test can't differentiate between different antibody classes (IgG, IgM, IgA etc). If your lab results says IgG, then it might not been analyzed using the neutralization method.
 
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you could have just gotten a new infection with B4 as well? Do a recheck for B4 maybe in 1 month imo,
Maybe, but actually I don't think so. I has a minor gastric flu in summer, but the symptoms were not that strong. Well, who knows... but I can say that I recovered well and didn't feel worse after the infection...