My OAT (Organic Acid Test) Results

[sb4]

@Learner1 Yes the conclusions I am coming to are slightly differen't to the papers linked based on a hunch I've got based on the stuff I've read, but I have no idea if this is right or not. I think it's both a vicous circle overcompensating and a hidden enviromental problem (pathogen).

Perhaps I should have been clearer; I was planning on doing vit C and DCA anyway based on this test but also other reasons; I am not using them to test the NO/ONOO hypothesis, but there perhaps ways it can help that also.

I absolutely have concerns with using the sledgehammer of DCA, but there is shown PDH inhibition; atp defecits, and warburg tier shifts. Perhaps increasing mitochondrial function by giving it the acetylcholine it needs will increase the energy available for the cell to overcome problem in certain pathways, and increase mitochondrial signaling to create a quorum of healthy cells that shift the balance of surrounding cells to healthy metabolisms. IDK, but it's worth a try to get out of the warburg style metabolism, especially if a virus is causing PDH inhibition; perhaps warburg was implemented to fight pathogens short term, but since then it has got stuck in the cycle. At the very least if it helps my heart pounding (which I suspect is in part due to glycolysis style metabolism instead of mito in heart and platelets) I will be grateful.

 

[Learner1]

@Learner1 Yes the conclusions I am coming to are slightly differen't to the papers linked based on a hunch I've got based on the stuff I've read, but I have no idea if this is right or not. I think it's both a vicous circle overcompensating and a hidden enviromental problem (pathogen).

Hmmm... if it's the pathogen, then it seems like you'll be paddling upstream until you address the pathogen. There are a lot of people who have benefited from treating the NO/ONOO problem with no mention of concurrently treating a pathogen.

I've been working on 7 chronic infections in the past year, which seem to be under control now, yet still seem to be experiencing the vicious cycle.

Perhaps I should have been clearer; I was planning on doing vit C and DCA anyway based on this test but also other reasons; I am not using them to test the NO/ONOO hypothesis, but there perhaps ways it can help that also.

How?

I absolutely have concerns with using the sledgehammer of DCA, but there is shown PDH inhibition; atp defecits, and warburg tier shifts. Perhaps increasing mitochondrial function by giving it the acetylcholine it needs will increase the energy available for the cell to overcome problem in certain pathways, and increase mitochondrial signaling to create a quorum of healthy cells that shift the balance of surrounding cells to healthy metabolisms. IDK, but it's worth a try to get out of the warburg style metabolism, especially if a virus is causing PDH inhibition; perhaps warburg was implemented to fight pathogens short term, but since then it has got stuck in the cycle.

As a cancer survivor, I'm keenly aware of Warburg. You may be interested in reading Thomas Seyfried, attached here.

One key thing buried in the first article is that the quality of ATP production depends on the quality of the lipids in the mitochondrial membranes. Maes and Morris discuss peroxynitrites as damaging mito membranes, as well as Garth Nicholson - its a foundation for his lipid replenishment theory.

So, there's not only what is moving through the mitochondria, but also what they're made of, their structure, and what our genes are doing that matters.

The ketogenic diet and HBOT are other interventions that have a place, too. And alpha lipoic acid, carnitine, NAD/NADH, acetyl-l-carnitine, riboflavin and CoQ10.

At the very least if it helps my heart pounding (which I suspect is in part due to glycolysis style metabolism instead of mito in heart and platelets) I will be grateful.

My heart tends to pound due to autoimmune POTS caused by my infections or if my thyroid dose is too high. Treating these has been quite helpful.

I don't know what the right answers are here, but I think we are dealing with a complex system with a lot of moving parts. And, due to my unfortunate family and personal health history, its become clear to me that we are not only trying to solve ME/CFS, but we need to do it without laughing ourselves into cancer or neurodegenerative diseases, which are impacted by the very same variables.

 

[sb4]

Hmmm... if it's the pathogen, then it seems like you'll be paddling upstream until you address the pathogen. There are a lot of people who have benefited from treating the NO/ONOO problem with no mention of concurrently treating a pathogen.

I've been working on 7 chronic infections in the past year, which seem to be under control now, yet still seem to be experiencing the vicious cycle.

Interesting. Yes I completely agree that getting rid of the pathogen would be best strategy, however finding it (if it exists) and treating it will be very hard to do. It's possible that you have more yet undetected pathogens, or its also possible that you are stuck in a vicous circle.

How?

Do you mean how will DCA help? I figure it could help in several ways. I am hoping it will allow my cells to oxidise carbs better leading to me being able to enter "carbosis" with minimal symptoms. This will be big for my gut and gastroparesis. Less paresis = less pots / less permeability/ LPS / more calories. This will be a big stressor off my system. I believe that if you can do enough things right to reduce stress load then you can reach a tipping point, where your body can overcome the remaining stressors.

Allowing carbs to be oxidised will prevent the lactic acid accumulation I experience. I believe this is a vicous circle in itself that kicks off stress hormones and inflammation. Now if this results in me being able to run my mitochondria as they need, now my cells might be able to communicate with each other (increased intelligence) and have the energy to overcome the initial problem. This is a lot of ifs, and so is why I am testing.

One key thing buried in the first article is that the quality of ATP production depends on the quality of the lipids in the mitochondrial membranes. Maes and Morris discuss peroxynitrites as damaging mito membranes, as well as Garth Nicholson - its a foundation for his lipid replenishment theory.

So, there's not only what is moving through the mitochondria, but also what they're made of, their structure, and what our genes are doing that matters.

Thanks for the articles, I will start reading. From what I understand the more unsaturated the fat, the more susceptible to peroxidisation. This will be very bad for mito.

My heart tends to pound due to autoimmune POTS caused by my infections or if my thyroid dose is too high. Treating these has been quite helpful.

I don't know what the right answers are here, but I think we are dealing with a complex system with a lot of moving parts. And, due to my unfortunate family and personal health history, its become clear to me that we are not only trying to solve ME/CFS, but we need to do it without laughing ourselves into cancer or neurodegenerative diseases, which are impacted by the very same variables.

Yes I think the autoimmune angle is fairly solid when it comes to POTS as it also explains the dry mouth, gastroparesis, etc. The question is, what is causing the autoimmunity, like one of the articles you sent me said, I think nitrites reacting with the tyrosine (???) on certain proteins/structures causes the immune system to react to them. So if we get rid of the root cause (enviroment/pathogen) of the NO/ONOO (which will have been activated in attempt to kill the pathogen) whilst simultaneously supporting the good players in the NO/ONOO, then we may be able to get around it.

As for the NO/ONOO, I definitely intend to delve more into it once my current experiments have been done.

 

[grapes]

My results are in and they are certainatly interesting. They add support to certain theories I have got for what is happening in my body. Chronic infection -> overwhelmed antioxidant systems -> shifted metabolism away from mitochondria oxidation.

Your post caught my eye. Here's a comparison between your OAT and my own in red, which represents high:

2-Hydroxybutyric 12 [<1.2] 88 ≤ 3.1
Vanillylmandelic 0.82 [0.53-2.2] 2.9 0.80 - 3.6
HVA I VMA Ratio 1.7 [0.32-1.4] 1.9 0.16 - 1.8
3-Hydroxyglutaric 5 [<4.6] 7.5 ≤ 6.2 (ketosis I seem to be always in)
Glycolic 106 [18-81] 32 (16 - 117)
Arabinose 38 [20] 44 ≤ 29

And the following that you wrote really caught me eye: Chronic infection -> overwhelmed antioxidant systems -> shifted metabolism away from mitochondria oxidation. I've not had a chronic infection causing my fatigue issues as much as I've had to detox a massive amount of copper out of my body (long story) over the last few years, which has been MASSIVELY stressful. On top of that, I also had chronic inflammation for many months due to inhaling a toxin--I have corrected that! Then I had to have a minor surgery (removal of tooth) 6 weeks ago, which didn't help.

ANDDD my Oat revealed too low levels of glutathione from all this detoxing. I'm back on NAC and some glutathione capsules.

My recent OAT (third one in three years) revealed this...so no wonder I'm so massively tired, take days to recover if I crash:

Succinic 35 (≤ 9.3)
Fumaric 1.8 (≤ 0.94)
Malic 3.8 (0.06 - 1.8)​

Turns out my OAT (Great Plains) revealed my B2 is two points below range...so no wonder my Succinic is SO high--very B2 dependent. Have been working on that a week. Also added B3 back in.

I also have a constant lactic acid build up and seemingly low ATP, though I do not seem to have an intolerance to carbs nor POTS.

Additionally, the recent OAT showed a strong gastrointestinal candida issue. i.e. besides Arabinose being too high...these:

5-Hydroxymethyl-2-furoic 30 (≤ 14)
3-Oxoglutaric 2.0 (≤ 0.33)
Furan-2,5-dicarboxylic 47!! ≤ 16​

So I'm now on treatment to get this yeast issue OUTTA ME. It's also causing my oxalate to be too high, unlike you, you lucky dog on that one.

By the way, my vitamin C used to be at the bottom as well, but have nicely brought that up the past 6 weeks. AND my B6 is not optimal at all according to this OAT: 7.2 (≤ 34). Have always been on B6, so clearly not enough or the last copper detox earlier this year lowered it.

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