My doc wants to pick your collective brains regarding antivirals

[Hoosierfans]

Hey all!

I had a great appointment with my internist today (the main doctor managing my illnesses) and we had a candid discussion about revisiting antivirals.

During that convo, we were discussing Prusty and Naviaux’s work and discoveries over the last couple of years.

He mentioned to me (and here’s where he wanted to pick your collective brains and experience) that he has had the best results treating patients with anti-virals where there is a clear active infection or recurrent lytic reactivations (which he sees in his autoimmune patients). His theory (and I am gonna get the science wrong here so correct me) is that the way the current antivirals work is by impeding replication (I can’t recall the name of the protein).

So, the problem becomes when you have these fragmented / stealth / whatever term you want to use viral infections (EBV, CMV, other herpes ones etc) that are causing a host of issues (mitochondrial issues etc) but aren’t per se replicating in a way that the current antivirals would be effective.

So his question was, what is the current thinking on how to treat these “smouldering” viral infections? Are there medications or other interventions that folks have found helpful?

I think I understood his question correctly....and promised him I would ask the collective geniuses on this forum....

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I think I understood his question correctly..

I think you have gotten at "The issue".

I have the same exact....question. I'll be keen to hear answers.

Recently decided I may be experiencing a type of viral reactivitation which is causing me considerable trouble stomach wise.

My GP/internal medicine, cardiac specialitty- won't Rx antivirals to me, and I've gotten nowhere so far trying to locate anyone to talk to about it. (appointment with local immunologist was canceled, they can['t help me they said.).

 

[aquariusgirl]

Yeah a lot antivirals don’t work ir work briefly. We need Ampligen or IVIG

 

[Hip]

So his question was, what is the current thinking on how to treat these “smouldering” viral infections? Are there medications or other interventions that folks have found helpful?

When you have regular viral infection or viral reactivation, antivirals work quickly, bringing the infection under control in a matter of days or weeks. These regular infections are known as productive infections (because they produce lots of new viral particles).

But it has been theorized by Dr Lerner that the herpesvirus infections in ME/CFS are often not productive infections, but an unusual form of infection called an abortive infection. Abortive infections are so called because in these infections the virus is never able to reproduce itself — it's life cycle gets aborted before it can create new viral particles.


Abortive infections are caused by the same herpesviruses (like EBV, cytomegalovirus, etc) that cause productive infections. So it is the same virus in both cases, but the virus enters a different mode of infection when it becomes abortive.

Dr Lerner points out that current antivirals (like Valtrex or Valcyte) work well on productive infections, but have no direct effect against abortive infections, only indirect effects. And this explains why when treating herpesvirus ME/CFS with antivirals, it takes such a long time (eg a year or so) to get results.


Dr Lerner's abortive herpesvirus infection theory of ME/CFS is detailed in this post. Note that this is only a theory; it has not been proven that ME/CFS involves abortive herpesvirus infection — but then nobody has bothered to look to see if these abortive infection are to be found in the tissues of ME/CFS patients.



In the case of the chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infections in ME/CFS, these are proven to exist in the tissues of ME/CFS patients. Non-cytolytic enterovirus is closely analogous to abortive herpesvirus.

 

[heapsreal]

From what i can gather antivirals can stop replication but not reactivation. A simplified view, no new baby viruses made but plenty of teenage viruses wrecking havoc . So antivirals can reduce the viral load so less teenagers wrecking havoc. Taking antivirals long term eventually and supposedly the viruses die out. Plus theres issues with tissue penetration of antivirals as well as into the nerves and brain??

Another part that may be missing is some part of the immune system isnt doing its job such as nk cells.

Im seeing a neuro soon. One hypothesis i have is the varicella keeps reactivating in the nerves on my head where the shingles first appeared. My last 12 months has been crap but i believe its because famvir stocks in australia keeping drying up. So i go on valtrex until famvir is back but valtrex ive never noticed anything positive from it for me.

If one has a viral onset on mono from one of the herpes viruses, antivirals are worth a 3 month shot.

 

[Hoosierfans]

Thank you guys — this clarifies a lot of this for me and where the science is at. Sending it along to my doc!! @Hip the drug you mentioned in your post regarding Learner’s theory (114 or 115 I think), who is developing that?

 

[Hip]

the drug you mentioned in your post regarding Learner’s theory (114 or 115 I think), who is developing that?

Which drug is that?

 

[Hoosierfans]

Which drug is that?

TAS-114 was mentioned in your other post...

 

[Hip]

TAS-114 was mentioned in your other post...

I don't even remember writing that! My memory is getting worse. That's very interesting, glad you drew my attention to it. TAS-114 could be helpful in herpesvirus ME/CFS.

 

[doug]

In addition to Cpn changing states to avoid treatment, bacteria and virus will hide in a biofilm matrix within intestines, upper respiratory passages. During anti- biotic or viral treatment, biofilm also needs to be broken down with enzymes and metal chelators, followed with fiber to bind and eliminate. Drs treating autism have published detailed 'biofilm treatment protocols' .