Mercola— The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online NYT

[hapl808]

We're all subject to be taken in because we are, as mentioned, sick and vulnerable. As my body was failing, multiple 'doctors' (board certified neurologists, rheumatologists, etc) told me to push through and there was no danger of making it worse. So I did just that, because there was no medical basis that pushing myself would cause any medical harm. And lo and behold, it caused medical harm. At which point they kind of roll their eyes and ask if I'm depressed. I'm sure I could get any antidepressant (ie. a drug that would make me stop bothering them), but just because it's FDA approved doesn't mean it's good. I think some people need antidepressants, but probably a fraction of those receiving them.

Modern medicine is a miracle - mostly for trauma care and very specific surgeries. Our treatment of chronic illness is pretty shit. As someone mentioned, life expectancy has improved partially due to air quality, knowledge of hygiene (maybe call that medicine?), germ theory (apparently lacking in COVID), and so forth. But in the last 100+ years, the life expectancy of a 10 year old hasn't improved as much as people imagine. The entire age of computers, AI, high resolution imaging, etc. And we've made some incremental improvements. While creating superbugs and other issues that we probably don't even know about.

Natural stuff can be helpful. FDA approved stuff can be helpful. Both can also do harm. No idea why that's controversial. Both industries have snake oil salesmen, more so in the natural world, but some slicker ones in pharma because there's more money (doubtful any natural cure snake oil destroyed as many lives as Purdue Pharma).

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I was taken in by Mercola some years ago (to my shame!) and I am a reasonably intelligent person (you know, except for the ME/CFS that's killing my brain)

There was a time when Mercola was a low-key originaotr of interesting blog posts re supps, etc ..... that probably ended around 2006 or 2008. Somewhere in there .... so it would have ben easy to be 'taken in', because there was no 'in' to be 'taken' to. He wasn't who he's since become.

If I can be fooled, so can may others.

Again, depends on the timeline. ANd even after he went to the dark side, he was till posting interesting information, that pretty much checked out if researched. Maybe a bt over the top, but that was easily attributable to his enthusiasm for his subject. And the really heavy-duty bullshite didnt start until around 2011 or 2012, I think. It was just a slow shift to the dismissible from the interesting and worthy of further research ...

And don't dismiss the effect on your normally inquisitive brain that the despair over what was happening to you would have had. And that's Mercola's meat and drink, doncha' know ....

I've fallen for some obviously questionable stuff in my desperate searches, too .... stuff that I would have dismissed out of hand earlier ...

So the question is, how we design a set of patient protections that allow healthcare people to innovate and pursue novel solutions for hard diseases like ours, and at the same time inhibit people like Mercola

Simple. First you elect several hundred honest, hard-working, empathetic legislators, hopefully some of them with a BG in medicine, both in your state and Federally. Then you stay on 'em like a saddle on a through-bred.

Then you get all the hospitals who've spent a bundle buying out Drs private practices, while leaving them in that ostensibly private practice, giving the hospitals a staggering amount of power and say over your treatment and procedures and making malpractice suits virtually unpursue-able, and you get the hospitals to disgorge that rich cornucopia and start over from scratch.

Then you somehow take Big Pharma's huge war chest, used to combat unfavorable decisions from the FDA et al and then buy better ones, you take that war chest away and make them actually prove both the value and the safety risks or benefits of their new and existing drugs, and their general performance profile, ie, are they effective in any way that a mother fearing for her child's life would be comforted by, and do they have long-term positive effects on disease as opposed to symptoms?

Then you change the hundreds and hundreds of laws that currently protect everyone from Drs who commit fairly gross errors to hospitals who allow those to be swept under the operating table, to insurance companies, to pharma companies ....

I could go on, but I'm really depressing myself ...

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Are'nt people in Mercola's profession subject to regulation by an organisation they belong to? Like say Vets or plumbers might be?

That would be the AMA, and I think the last time they actually called a Dr to task would have been Dr. Mudd, just after the famous assassination ....

Just joking. They didnt exist then.

A Dr's missteps must be soooooo egregious, so overwhelmingly undefendable, that the Drs who comprise the AMA boards of review would almost literally fear for their lives if the public found out they'd let that Dr skate ...

It's demoralizing to know that your bathtub has greater courts of last resort than, say, your heart. Kidneys. Liver. Brain.

This is a lttle hyperbolic, but not by much ....

 

[wabi-sabi]

I could go on, but I'm really depressing myself ...

Oh no, it's no depressing at all. If we're going to fix things, first we have to be able to imagine the solution. Imagining may be most of what I'm doing right now, but I still think it's worthwhile.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Herbals are really good in some instances, but they are weak anti-virals, for instance. I try to go the herbal route as a first attempt (for example, tried liquorice root rather than fludrocortisone for my daughter and horse chestnut instead of midodrine) but I think it's foolish not to also include pharmaceuticals in your arsenal. I don't really understand that approach.

Most pharmaceuticals are patented synthetics of herbals.

I like to avoid them because they eliminate poorly understood co-factors existing in the plant.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Most pharmaceuticals are patented synthetics of herbals.

I agree this is often the case. The on ly way they can patent it is to do modifications or weird delivery systems/patentable. The isolate things, which. in fact are part of complex synergies.

I' ve been advised by my chinese TCM that I should definately NOT be taking the blood sugar pill everyone thinks is super wonderful, derived from bitter gourd. That is the wrong route to fix the issue, in my specific case.

They've isolated that, and now its a pill.

I do whole chinese herbs and complex mixes of them...including many synergistic interactions.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Oh no, it's no depressing at all. If we're going to fix things, first we have to be able to imagine the solution. Imagining may be most of what I'm doing right now, but I still think it's worthwhile.

Imaginings are gestational reality ..... imagine away !!!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Most pharmaceuticals are patented synthetics of herbals.

I like to avoid them because they eliminate poorly understood co-factors existing in the plant.

You might as well have downloaded that from my brain .....

And even worse than patented synthetics, they're isolates, eliminating, as you stated, critical co-factors and assists that science hasn;t unraveled either the meaning or even the existence of yet. Which may be one of the reasons they often have such vile side-effects ....

 

[Celandine]

@IThinkImTurningJapanese @YippeeKi YOW !!

But sometimes you need to avoid those co-factors. There were so many herbals I wanted to try with my daughter but so many of them lower blood pressure and/or act as blood thinners. Because of PoTS those two things are very undesirable. It took me a long time to figure out why certain herbals would make her much worse--headache, fatigue etc. And it usually boiled down to those other effects of the herbal. I know pharmaceuticals have side effects, but because they're so targeted you don't have to worry about balancing things. Herbals are much more complicated. Almost impossibly so, considering how complicated ME can be.

Ivabradine is a prime example of a pharmaceutical with a single effect. Lowers heart rate without lowering blood pressure. That's all it needs to do. It's perfect. I would never be able to find an herbal that could do that. I'd have to balance about ten different things to come close to that. And it would be unpredictable.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Celandine , @IThinkImTurningJapanese

I know pharmaceuticals have side effects, but because they're so targeted you don't have to worry about balancing things

That very targeting is part of what makes them so dangerous. They're powerful isolates, and like an IED, extremely limited ad sometimes lethal in a narrow framework. Not all, but most.

And as far as not worrying about balancing things, that's where polypharma starts. A series of side-effects from treatment drug A, addressed with another medication, Drug B, which produces a side effect, which is addressed with another medication, Drug C, which produces a side effect .....

And so it goes.

Ivabradine has a list of some 30 other meds you cant take at the same time, and a list of some 150-200 or more that you may have to take simultaneously but that aren't recommended and require close medical supervision.

It carries warnings that it "may" (and my experience has been that 'may' means " ..... usually does, our attorneys told us to insert this somewhere in the tightly folded info little onion-skin thingy that's inserted along with this drug so we are...." increase your risk for heart rhythm problems, including atrial fibrillation and bradycardia, and you're urged to call with your doctor right away if you have fast, slow, or irregular heartbeat, dizziness, fainting, or trouble breathing while using this medicine.

It 'may' also cause odd reacti0ons to light, causing temporary extreme visual brightness usually in reaction to sudden changes in light levels, like going from the indoors to the outdoors. Or one room to another. And of course, the usual warnings about using caution when driving or using machinery where those changes in light are most likely to happen, particualrly when driving at night.

Ivabradine works and plays poorly with otherwise safe, GRAS-approved OTC meds as well as herbs like St John's wort (which in fairness tends to interact with several other things as well) which may mean that it clears thru select P450 liver isozymes closely related to other heavy-duty drugs, and carries a truly impressive list of side effects, listed from 'MOST COMMON' like blurred vision, chest pain or discomfort, fast or irregular heartbeat, headache, lightheadedness, dizziness, and fainting, something they call 'nervousness' which we'd probably register as bad anxiety, pounding in the ears, which we might experience as ear and head pressure, slow or irregular heartbeat, and unusual tiredness, which I think we probably have enough of.

And those are just the common side effects. There's a huge raft of something they refer to coyly as "INCIDENCE NOT KNOWN', which makes me think immediately that patients may have expired so are no longer able to report side effects or be counted on the basis of specific side effects, at least not without a talented Medium.

Some of those unknown incidence side effects are pretty specific: POTS, large, hive-like swellings on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, genitals along with itching and other skin rashes, possibly all at the same time. They're vague on that. Also profuse sweating, akithesia, double vision, sensations of spinning and falling, difficulty seeing, diplopia, and unusually warm skin, read 'burning'.

Ivabradine is a prime example of a pharmaceutical with a single effect. Lowers heart rate without lowering blood pressure. That's all it needs to do. It's perfect.

So if that's what your prescribing Dr has told you about this drug, he's got some 'splainin to do. Cause Ivabradine is waaaaaaaay more generous than just ' ...one thing ....'.

I'm hoping that you were prescribed this with full disclosure and informed consent, but in my sad experience, that usually means a Dr saying, "This'll fix 'ya right up .... NEXT !!!!"

I dont mean to rag on you or preach. We each need to pick our own treatment modality, and what we chose is no one else's business. I've learned my lessons, and I'll stick to them for now .... I was just trying to share some of those lessons with you, uninvited. Probably rude. Apologies ....

 

[Celandine]

@YippeeKi YOW !!
Well, of course Ivabradine may cause bradycardia! It's supposed to lower heart rate. The dose needs to be adjusted to the individual. It really does do that one thing via something actually called the "funny" channel of the heart. All the side effects are very specifically related to heart rhythm (other than the funky light thing), which is the one thing it modulates. Of course it won't agree with some people. The same goes for everything. I also disagree that the list of side effects represents likely side effects. I haven't found that at all with myself or my daughter with any meds we've taken. You're saying that you and people you know get most of the listed side effects of the meds you take? They're included to cover the company's ass in case they crop up. Daughter's PoTS consultant has had many many patients on Ivabradine as it has such a good safety profile compared to other things. It's the thing he hopes will work for people before being forced to move on to other things.

The main side effect is the strange light halo thing and, of course, the doctor warned us about it. It's a kind of weird trippy thing, apparently, and my daughter was kinda hoping to get it but she didn't.

I've looked up the interaction profiles for loads of herbals and you find the same thing. The CYP450 enzymes used to metabolise herbals are no different than the metabolic pathways for pharmaceutical drugs. I even found a while back that both peppermint and camomile, which everyone presumes to be totally benign, slow the metabolism of caffeine and so increase its effects.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The CYP450 enzymes used to metabolise herbals are no different than the metabolic pathways for pharmaceutical drugs.

Yes. As I mentioned in my post to you re Ivabradine ... fact is, pretty much every syubstance you put in your mouth is going to be metabolized by one or anoher pathway in the P450 systm.

I even found a while back that both peppermint and camomile, which everyone presumes to be totally benign, slow the metabolism of caffeine and so increase its effects.

Chamomile clears thru the same CYP that some hypnotics do. Grapefruit, both juice and pulp, is either an inhibitor or an inducer of multiple CYPs (too tired to drag that info out of its cubby hole in my brain right now), and can seriously interact with everything from heart meds to tranqs to antipsychotics.

I fact, pretty much everything we eat, drink, or take with the possible exception of water will be either an inhibitor or an inducer of several other things to varying degrees, ranging from mild (peppermint and chamomile) to serious (grapefruit).

They're included to cover the company's ass in case they crop up.

Yes, again as I mentioned in my post.

If you can find me an herb or even a blend of standard herbs with as potentially a catastrophic list of "possible" side effects, I'd definitely be interested ....

I also disagree that the list of side effects represents likely side effects.

Well, the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, the MedRX list, along with several others, including Amgen, who developed and produces it, apparently disagree .... they all have the same COMMON SIDE EFFECTS list, which I just spent time and energy I dont have looking up.

Well, of course Ivabradine may cause bradycardia! It's supposed to lower heart rate.

Yes. In patients with elevated heart rates or worsening heart failure. When it lowers a normal heart rate into bradycardia, it stops being therapeutic and starts being a potential problem, bsed on its duration an severity ....

Bradycardia is defined as a heart rate that falls and stays below about 60 beats per minute, and if that slowed rate prevents the heart from pumping enough oxygen-saturated blood thru the vascular system and out to the body and its critical organs, it can be the precursor to everything from a simple fainting spell to death.

Again, I'll repeat what I already said above: we all have to pick one treatment modality or another, and it's nobody else's business, and some day, I'll learn to stick to that.

But I was concerned when you posted that Ivabradine was an ideal drug, did only one thing and so was easier than herbs, and was " ...perfect ...".

Take care, both you and your daughter ....

Edit... typos and additional clarity

 

[Celandine]

@YippeeKi YOW !!
Ivabradine is an ideal drug for many PoTS patients. That's what I'm talking about. Bradycardia is the least of your worries with PoTS. If it happens (unlikely for PoTS patients) then you'd simply go off the drug or reduce dosage. It's short acting and not habit forming. You can stop it whenever you want. No tapering. If you can give me an herbal that does anything similar I'd love to hear about it. Other than the strange but harmless halo light effect thing all the side effects are actually just... effects. They all relate to heart rhythm and heart rate. A side effect to me would be something like dry mouth or a rash--effects that have nothing to do with the primary indication for the drug. Ivabradine is prescribed off-label for PoTS. All the stuff you're reading about concerns people taking it for chronic heart failure, which is its indicated use. Those patients are already in a much much more compromised cardiac state than PoTS patients are likely to be.

Here's a huge list of herbs with known adverse "side" effects and interactions. I see no difference between the kinds of things on this list--heart attack, heart arrhythmia, stroke, death, cancer, liver damage, etc etc-- and the kinds of things in pharmaceutical inserts. Only difference is I'd have to know to research it myself with herbals. A bag of liquorice root powder has no warnings. Isn't that more dangerous than a clear list of possible side effects to watch out for? I'd also have no way of calculating dosage with herbals and would have to rely on trial and error.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_herbs_with_known_adverse_effects

There's no right or wrong here! Pharmaceutical drugs aren't inherently bad and herbals aren't inherently good/better. Horses for courses as they say over here. I sound like a shill for big pharma. Not at all. I do my research. I've tried to keep my daughter off anything that could cause long-term damage while getting her to the best quality of life possible.

One more thing--When she was very ill, I took my daughter to two separate herbalists with very good reputations. One was actually nationally known. Both did a great job listening to her issues and then both gave us bottles of tincture with a combination of herbals designed to work synergistically etc etc. Both times daughter's health declined. As it was a combination tincture we had no way of knowing what was working and what wasn't;. My conclusion was that the herbalists (these ones anyway) just don't really understand the multi-layered complexity of ME and PoTS and so were trying to help fatigue, insomnia, headache, body pain, etc etc. without a true grasp of the autonomic nervous system and other confounding factors. That's just my experience. In the end, the perfect mix (for a while anyway) was Ivabradine (pharmaceutical) and horse chestnut (herbal). Neither worked well without the other, but together they were a game changer for my daughter. After a while the horse chestnut seemed to be losing effect and so now she's on Ivabradine and Midodrine and doing incredibly well. In the end that's all that matters--being able to be out of bed and in the world. Who cares if you manage that with herbs or pharmaceutical meds??

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

A bag of liquorice root powder has no warnings. Isn't that more dangerous than a clear list of possible side effects to watch out for?

Well, not entirely, tho it will, if used in a fairly large quantity for an extended period of time cause a dangerous rise in blood pressure. But it's also a remarkable herb in many other ways, and is also an excellent potentiater and delivery 'device'.

Part of its danger is that because of its many benefits, particularly in combinations of herbs, it's used in sooooo many blends that people who dont know a much as you do can more easily get into trouble with it ...

I'd also have no way of calculating dosage with herbals and would have to rely on trial and error.

Herbals are more difficult to figure out, an the blends that are sold for general consumption are almost invariably abject failures ta whatever they're purported to do.

And now I know that I sound like a shill for herbs and crystals, which I guess to a certain extent, I am. The herbs, not so much the crystals beyond whatever healing qualities are conferred by their beauty ....

Herbs are far more powerful than anyone, other than a really good herbalist, generally knows. And as you and I have discovered, they're few and far between, much like really good and caring Drs.

All the stuff you're reading about concerns people taking it for chronic heart failure, which is its indicated use.

Not entirely. Side effects don't restrict themselves solely to specific conditions, altho granted, some give them more leeway than others ...

There's no right or wrong here! Pharmaceutical drugs aren't inherently bad and herbals aren't inherently good/better

Totally agree ...

I sound like a shill for big pharma

No, more like a deeply caring and loving mother, happy and relieved to see her child blooming again.

I took my daughter to two separate herbalists with very good reputations. One was actually nationally known.

I've had the exact same experience, also with a man who was nationally, and even internationally, lauded, revered, and respected. I had to fight like Tyson to get an appt with him, during which he sneered, belittled, and criticized me until finally, exasperated and tired of being cowed, I said, "Do you treat all your patients this rudely, or am I getting special treatment?"

To his credit, he did a form of "Drs Apology", becoming more conciliatory and helpful, and asking another 15 minutes of questions regarding signs and symptoms ....

But his herb blend, which cost almost as much as a good set of used Gucci luggage by the time we were done , was a dismal failure and set me back in some critical ways ....

In the end that's all that matters--being able to be out of bed and in the world.

Again, couldn;t agree more. Whether you achieve that with faith healers, homeopaths, shamans waving bundles of smoking pine lives over you, or allopathic medicine makes absolutely no difference, beyond the fact that any success accomplished by the first three would have to be regarded as a form of miracle cure ...

Who cares if you manage that with herbs or pharmaceutical meds??

And again, agree agree agree .... caveat emptor, know the limits, restrictions, and possible repercussions and rock on !!!

My concern, not knowing you well enough to, you know, know, was that you might have one of the ordinary run of Drs who may not have suffciently conveyed some, or even any, of the important info to you before prescribing ..... and I know how hard it is to absorb even a minor setback when dealing with this bitchy little buzz-bomb of an illness ...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

A bag of liquorice root powder has no warnings. Isn't that more dangerous than a clear list of possible side effects to watch out for?

I do exclusively chinese herbs, part of an herbal system, and the herbal expert assembles the herbal mix for me.

Licorice root is never taken alone.

Self prescribing comes with all the forwarnings you mention. Using established protocols comes with far fewer risks.

 

[bertiedog]

and/or act as blood thinners.

I have run into trouble so many times with herbs because the vast majority of them are blood thinners and that is the opposite of what I need. They cause me to bruise far too readily and give me horrendous non stop migraines. Cannot count the number of times it has happened to me over the years so I actually dose better on a low dose of a suitable drug.

Also I have read many times of the dangers of certain herbs containing heavy metals especially Chinese ones.

Pam

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Also I have read many times of the dangers of certain herbs containing heavy metals especially Chinese ones.

I only purchase chinese herbs that are tested for heavy metals.