Mental/depressive PEM

[judyinthesky]

Hey all, I got severe after Covid vaccine and am reexperiencing several things that I had when I had a virus in Vietnam.
Please help.

My main issue is a kind of "physical bipolar" - well that is what CFS actually is.. but every crash for me is also a mental PEM.

I have the issue that due to the wired mental state I find it hard to get onto antidepressants. The mental wired state leads to compensatory depression and PEM, but every PEM is also a mental one for me.

Clonazepam help a bit.

Any ideas??
Anyone has this issue?

 

[xebex]

Yea I have a similar problem, when I’m in a crash I am ofcourse experiencing PEM but I also feel very low and experience rage attacks (. last week I kicked a hole through my bedroom door.) After a couple of days it goes away and im completely “fine” I don’t think it’s secondary depression ie hopelessness from being in a crash but depresssion from toxins crossing the blood brain barrier + reduced cerebral oxygen/blood flow. I have found NAC helpful in clearing this up, R-ALA might also be helpful - I have also just started niacin which I think is helping with the cerebral blood flow/oxygenation.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I have the issue that due to the wired mental state I find it hard to get onto antidepressants. The mental wired state leads to compensatory depression and PEM, but every PEM is also a mental one for me.

yes- PEM includes mental PEM for me most of the time.

I'm not sure what hard to get onto anti depressants, means. I was unable to tolerate them as they induced a whole suite of worsening side effects for the ME. So I just threw them out.

So I can observe here, that using my brain doing concentrated thinking can result in PEM that includes my gut has no more energy any longer and it turns to mush (yesterday).

So I felt quite depressed yesterday because I felt real lousy and did not deserve to feel so lousy. I just try fairly successfully not to pile on these low moments, just let them sort of show up and pass thru.

 

[Booble]

PEM and post-viral includes anxiety for me. Like weird, crazy wtf thinking. I used to think it was just me having anxiety but later I realized that it is more likely cytokine produced. Mold allergy flare-ups also do the same, maybe cytokines are created from that too?

I wish I had some advice for you. I just suffer through and hope/wait for it to pass.
The only thing that helps me is journaling/writing down all my crazy thoughts. Once I get it all out of my head and onto "paper" I can set them aside for a bit.

 

[judyinthesky]

Interesting with the cytocines. I wonder what one could do?
What I mean with hard to get onto antidepressants is that they always cause additional issues.
@Rufous McKinney how severe is your ME?

 

[Booble]

I wonder if there is any research on moving the cytokines out of your body quicker. I know they are there for a purpose but it would be nice if they would leave once they finish!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

@Rufous McKinney how severe is your ME?

I was mild for decades- eppstein barr type of thing, with episodes of like flare ups, lymph, low grade fever. Didin't have cognitive issues or much neurological.

I got worse about three years ago after a bunch of massive stress and maybe a subsequent virus. So I am mod now with an hour or two a day of sort of functioning before the symptoms worsen over hte course of the day.

I do some chinese herbs which help.

PEM and post-viral includes anxiety for me. Like weird, crazy wtf thinking.

I do plenty of anxious thinking at times, altho I have alot of the stress now under control. Yesterday I just felt real lousy in an extra odd way and its hard to cope. there is this inability to rest- part of the Yin deficiency as the chinese call it happenign often here. You get sort of panicky. I don't mean that literally in my case.

Heat in the heart- literally- does that. So I need to get a whole lot of boiling over- out of my body.

 

[judyinthesky]

I wonder if there is any research on moving the cytokines out of your body quicker. I know they are there for a purpose but it would be nice if they would leave once they finish!

Actually I measured interleukin 6 - five days post the vaccine - and it was normal

 

[Emmarose47]

Yes low mood at onset on crash .....
I do take anti dep but it still happens
Sorry u struggle talking helps

 

[judyinthesky]

Yes low mood at onset on crash .....
I do take anti dep but it still happens
Sorry u struggle talking helps

Could you describe to me, if you don't mind, how anti deps help you and maybe what type.

I have understood that I should always take it as a sign for rest. Wonder if that would fall away or whether energy envelope would increase. However can't deal with many ADs, have tried a few but maybe worth another? Thanks.

 

[Emmarose47]

Could you describe to me, if you don't mind, how anti deps help you and maybe what type.

I have understood that I should always take it as a sign for rest. Wonder if that would fall away or whether energy envelope would increase. However can't deal with many ADs, have tried a few but maybe worth another? Thanks.

Hi Judy
I have been a low mood sufferer pre CFS ...been on ssri citalopram for 12 yrs ..
CFS severe for past 6 mths ..
I also have cptsd.
The anti dep basically give me a boyancy to be able to cope with life somewhat better . They also help anxiety and sleep .
Could u explain more your situation as I'm not quite understanding ...
Wired state ? Compensatory depression ..
The anti dep don't increase my energy envelope and I still get low mood, some anxiety and weird mental feelings in my head when I'm crashing ...

 

[judyinthesky]

Yes it's what you described: low mood when crashing. When not I am fine and can deal with the situation.

 

[Emmarose47]

Yes it's what you described: low mood when crashing. When not I am fine and can deal with the situation.

I think this is v normal ...I've done a similar post somewhere and got some good responses in how to deal with it ...
It's our thinking that goes does so techniques to help that ...
I get the whats the point of my life thoughts etc but I know now they will pass and distraction is a good technique ...

 

[judyinthesky]

I think this is v normal ...I've done a similar post somewhere and got some good responses in how to deal with it ...
It's our thinking that goes does so techniques to help that ...
I get the whats the point of my life thoughts etc but I know now they will pass and distraction is a good technique ...

Yes I think to some extent that is normal, but I believe that there are variations of this illness with some having more mental PEM and I think this is where it gets tricky as doctors might see that as even more psychosomatic.

I've noticed this the first time when my thyroid got out and I could still do sports. Suddenly I would have mental PM I never had before two days later. But at that time my energy envelope was still huge, from hindsight I see the early signs though.

I have mental PEM so badly when I crash it can get really suicidal, and it's an issue when it lasts a bit longer... but otherwise yes, I know it might pass. One time I've been in a week long crash though because I overdid movement and that was bad.

Hence my thinking and pondering whether antidepressants could also do something for me.

 

[Emmarose47]

Thanks for explaining more Judy ...
I'm not familiar with the term mental PEM but I understand now it's what happens to us in flare with the mental state ....makes sense as the nervous system and immune system get activated affects the brain ...and some scientists say the problem is in the brain maybe some virus gets trapped there ?
I've noticed and it's happening today I get this disattached feeling from myself disassociation and some panic it's a horrible feeling ...I know it would be worse if I wasn't on anti dep ..
Also I'm alone when in bad crash good to not have people to contend with but would be nice to have someone to care for me ..
Suicidal thinking is so horrible and I'm sorry u suffer this ... I understand as I have it ..
I try and bring lots of self compassion in when I can and remember .. but it's unpleasant and as u say can be seen more as the psychosomatic ..

I have also tried a lot of anti dep and couldn't get over the titration symptoms ( suicidal thoughts / extreme anxiety ) that can happen with the system trying to get used to them .
Citalopram is the only one I can tolerate ..
Not sure what country u are in and what ones u have tried ? Maybe there is one your doc hasn't mentioned ?

 

[judyinthesky]

@Emmarose47 thank you so much.
Yes when not in crash I am not suicidal at all but a very happy person!
It could be that I will try them out one more time, but only after I've left this crash. I feel in a crash you can't start new medication at all and atm still in hospital due to my strong vaccine reaction. Interesting with only one you can tolerate!

 

[Emmarose47]

Sounds like good self care Judy ..
Sorry to hear re the vaccine . I was due it but I feel too scared and so am waiting for now ..
I know someone else who had bad reaction for some wks ..
Yes need to be in right place to start meds anti dep are strong drugs ..also I've had breaks from citalopram I started taking 20mg and it was too much for my body ( I'd been in bad flare up ....so halved the dose and this was much better then went up to 20mg when body got used to it ....

 

[judyinthesky]

Thank you! I think it will take a long time but at some point will get over it. Have to believe in it!