Melatonin

[taniaaust1]

Ok. Thanks.

You guys have any other suggestions on what to take for insomnia?

Some of us find anti-histamines before bed can be helpful for insomina (dont take them too often thou as Ive found one can build up tollerance to them and then need a stronger dose.. so say.. take only a couple of times per week).

One anti-histamine which can be brought over the counter is Doxylamine Succinate Tablets which sometimes can be brought as a sleep Aid. Sometimes one only needs a very very low dose of it so take care how much you take eg I brought 25mg pills but found that I only needed about 6mg and it was very very hard to break the pills up that small). I wish I brought a lot smaller dose.

I cant thou stress enough the importance of good sleep hygiene practices too (no exciting movies stimulating right before bed). Make sure the room is "completely dark" when trying to sleep (even lights on clock radios can affect sleep. I also found my electric blanket on while trying to sleep affected me from getting to sleep).

 

[Sherlock]

One anti-histamine which can be brought over the counter is Doxylamine Succinate....

I'd just read about doxylamine, it's in Nyquil and Unisom. I'm thinking that maybe it can be alternated with diphenhydramine (Benadryl) to avoid tolerance.

Prozac was developed an an offshoot of diphenhydramine, which at first sounded odd to me until I discovered that histamine is also a neurotransmitter. Diphenhydramine also helps combat polyuria that keeps waking me when I'm sick.

Still, I wouldn't want to take something every night.

 

[arx]

Thanks for the replies guys.I'll consider the anti-histamines.

I want some opinion on Clonazepam. (I tend to have a wired feeling throughout the day,coupled with anxiety and insomnia at night)
Benzos can be addictive, but I guess melatonin does nothing for anxiety, just works on the circadian rhythms,right?

 

[Sparrow]

Passion flower, GABA, or theanine can help with anxiety (for some reason theanine makes me queasy, but I take something called Brain Calm that has the other two with some inositol). ...Though they come with the ups and downs of most natural products (a bit less intense difference than drugs, but also less side effects). Might be worth a try. Again, I would try a professional brand to test them out if possible.

I often find that I get a much worse wired feeling and have much more trouble sleeping at night when I've overdone it a bit in general. I think maybe something doesn't quite work right when my body's in a slump. Less overdoing it definitely seems to help (but I know how hard that is, and acknowledge that it can't always get rid of the problem entirely).

Sherlock - I'm not sure why the valerian does that, but I remember reading that a not insignificant percentage of people are affected that way (10%, maybe? Can't remember). Everyone, I think, not just ME/CFS patients. I've never looked further into why, but it might be interesting to know.

 

[arx]

Ok.Thanks,Sparrow.

 

[heapsreal]

Thanks for the replies guys.I'll consider the anti-histamines.

I want some opinion on Clonazepam. (I tend to have a wired feeling throughout the day,coupled with anxiety and insomnia at night)
Benzos can be addictive, but I guess melatonin does nothing for anxiety, just works on the circadian rhythms,right?

if going to use klono or any other type of benzo, i would try to only use it a few times a week at the lowest dose that works for you, if tolerance occurrs and your normal dose doesnt work then its tome to stop it completely for several months and switch to another sleep med. Good to alternate benzos with some type of antihistamines which have already been mentioned. Sedating antidepressants also help many and certain muscle relaxers like baclofen or tizanidine etc

 

[arx]

Ok. What is the recommended lowest dose, or the generally perceived lowest dose?

 

[heapsreal]

klono isnt generally used as a sleep med more for anxiety but like all benzos, its sedating effects help sleep. Tolerence to its sleeping effects occurr quickly but anti anxiety effects work for longer. I think .5mg is the common starting dose. I dont know what other meds u tried but i think a better choice of med for sleep is ambien or lunesta, everyone reacts differently to meds though.sometimes low dose combos work best especially after using sleep meds for awhile, eg low dose benzo with antihistamines or combined with something natural like tryptophan or valerian, kava etc. The idea of this is a way to avoid increasing benzo doses to get sleep. Alternate swap change regular breaks from things if u have chronic insomnia. Avoid getting into a trap of staying with one med and increasing the dose over time and having problems of withdrawals when trying to stop. Thats my theory??

 

[arx]

Yeah, I understand. Its a good theory. Sticking to the benzo will eventually lead to tolerance,withdrawal and other problems to deal with. I'll research antihistamines and natural things to help me with a low dose benzo. Thanks for the idea!

 

[Sherlock]

Sherlock - I'm not sure why the valerian does that, but I remember reading that a not insignificant percentage of people are affected that way (10%, maybe? Can't remember). Everyone, I think, not just ME/CFS patients. I've never looked further into why, but it might be interesting to know.

Hi, Sparrow. You must mean in relation to alleviating polyuria? I found this:

"Composition and method for reducing blood sugar levels in diabetic humans"

"An initial dose of 40 milligrams of bilberry fruit...and 400 milligrams of valerian root... The subject has reduced glycosuria and has no polyuria."

Thanks, Sparrow. As we know, high glucose in the bladder contents makes the body want to get rid of that danger, so urination occurs followed by thirst & drinking more water, all in a perpetual cycle. That's the classic diabetes symptom. I doubt that I personally have much chance of having impaired glucose metabolism, but I'd suppose that valerian might provide a simple test for those who might. So yes, that was interesting to discover

However, in the past I'd also come to understand that interferon can causes polyuria. (Interferon is the endogenous anti-viral which is now manufactured and used as an antiviral against e.g. hepatitis.) A side effect experienced by interferon users is polyuria. E.g.: http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmaceutical/b2.1.monographs/CPS- Monographs/CPS- (General Monographs- I)/INTRON A.html Another symptom that I get when sick is burning eyes, which also can be caused by interferon. So I'd thought that many of my symptoms might result from internally produced interferon that results from some viral flareup.

But now my working theory is instead that maybe histamine is the real cause, at least in me.

 

[Sherlock]

Btw, regarding melatonin: out in the general world it is becoming increasing popular as an antioxidant, in large part because it is both water soluble and fat soluble and can enter all tissues and that being in addition to its ability to cross the blood brain barrier. I've even heard of it lately being used as a pre-workout supplement, which is interesting seeing as how it has mainly been thought of as a sleep aid

 

[Sparrow]

Hi, Sparrow. You must mean in relation to alleviating polyuria?

Actually, I was just referring to it being an energizer instead of a sedative for me (makes me more wired). That stuff you found is very interesting, though.

 

[Sherlock]

Actually, I was just referring to it being an energizer instead of a sedative for me (makes me more wired).

Since I'm interested in knowing why melatonin has zero noticeable effect on me, after I read what you say, I looked up 'paradoxical effect melatonin' and see this:
"Paradoxical effects of melatonin on spontaneous neuronal activity in the striatum of sham-operated and pinealectomized rats."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1403608

"However, in the group of rats pinealectomized 7 days earlier, the injection of melatonin (at the same dose as above) significantly increased the excitatory response..."

So maybe in you (and maybe me) the pineal gland is somewhat malfunctioning, maybe directly because of inflammatory chemicals affecting the pineal gland. Perhaps more likely is that the histamine receptors in the hypothalamus do something to the pineal gland. My guess for the inflammatory chemical is histamine, and there are histamine receptors (type H4) in the hypothalamus - which could account for messed up hypothalamic control of body temperature, also.

 

[taniaaust1]

Thanks for the replies guys.I'll consider the anti-histamines.

I want some opinion on Clonazepam. (I tend to have a wired feeling throughout the day,coupled with anxiety and insomnia at night)
Benzos can be addictive, but I guess melatonin does nothing for anxiety, just works on the circadian rhythms,right?

I personally really liked Clonazepam and didnt have the issues with getting addicted to it like some do (it all depends on the individual and also how its taken). It was so so relieving for the intense, constant anxiety (and wired.. over neurotoxicity and over stimulation. (I only had to take a quarter of the lowest dose pill for relief of that constant anxiety over stimulated feel).

It didnt help my sleep at all thou, (it wasnt prescribed to me for sleep anyway but rather for the other stuff). My sleep issues were being caused by far more then anxiety (circardian issues, neurological issues with my brain wave state which showed up on EEGs etc I had at least 4 different sleep issues going on and hence no one thing could of helped me a lot at that time).

It all depends on what the issues are which are causing the insomina... treatment needs to be tried to be based on what is causing the sleep issues if possible eg if circardian issue then its try melatonin, if its pain causing insomina treat that, if neurotoxicity.. maybe clonazepam could help (but take care with it.. dont go and keep rasing dose if u build up a tollerance.. if a certain dose works for you, dont increase if affects stop working.

Be aware that often very very low doses help the over stimulated nervous system, so make sure you arent taking more then needed as this drug can become a big issue for some and non ME/CFS doctors often are unaware that very very small doses may help, so start people off on a far higher dose then what they may be needing.

Also small other factors which you may not think of.. may be giving sleep issues to you too due to the sensitivity of ones with ME.

And yes.. melatonin will not work if its anxiety causing your insomina, it isnt a sedative or hypnotic (sleep drug) but rather just replaces melatonin if someone is deficient so helps sleep just by doing that.

 

[arx]

Yeah.Thanks,@taniaaust1.
I too really felt relieved with Clonazepam. It helped my wired feeling,muscle spasms and provided a feeling of comfort. I've only taken it for four days(0.5mg/day).

For me,I think it is both, the anxiety/over stimulation and the circadian issues, as both arise from taking active b12s.

I started a thread about benzos,and there are interesting and scary views from benzo/ex-bnzo users.After reading their views, I might never take a benzo again.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/benzos.18212/

 

[Allyson]

I have started taking CIRCADIN slow release melatonin and find it a bit better than the others so far

I also use a blue light box in the mornings to turn off melatonin production and this helps a lot

i always feel better after taking clonazepam to sleep but I use it sparingly as it is habit forming
Dr Cheney claims it boosts blood volume. I take .5 to 1 mg if I can get to sleep or if I wake before about 5am and cant go back to sleep
I find drinking cup of hot water helps me sleep
any meds i take with hot - not cold - drink
bath before bed helps not too hot
exercise like aquaerobics helps me sleep better
earplugs for hyper acousia
white noise or back ground soft music CD
l-tryptophan
valerian makes me drowsy next day
L theanine
Hope this is some help

 

[arx]

You've given me some very good ideas. Thanks, Allyson.

 

[Allyson]

you are welcome arx, one other thing i think helps is I ahve an electric throw or over blanket and that warms you much quicker than and electric underblanket; so to get to sleep and if i wake up cold I turn that on high for a while and it warms you up quickly - with the hot water drink too - and you get to sleep more quickly
If i cant get back to slepp after 30 mins or so I watch a gentle or quiet dvd and that usualy does the trick
With the valerian it makes me drowsy nextday so i use it sparingly and take it early about 9 pm
Oh and linden herbal t4ea is nice drink that help you sleep too - I buy the dried leaves - i think it is lime leaves
ond soje of the herbal sleep tea blends around are good an all help a litte bit too
goes without saying to limit your caffeine and any stimulating food slike red food colouring or anythig you find keeps you awake - glatin in marshmallows is a killer for me...i think due to the preservative
good luck
Ally

 

[ramakentesh]

Melatonin has interesting effects on postural vasculature control. It reduces MSNA firing which may adversely effect those with NCS/NMH but perhaps help POTS.
But more importantly it increased vasodilation of pial vessels in the CNS and increases capacity of the cerebral autoregulatory mechanism which should benefit POTS patients.

 

[arx]

Allyson

Thanks again.You are awesome.

ramakentesh

Any long term side effects of melatonin that you know of?