ME/CFS Test? Can you raise your legs when lying down?

[Gingergrrl]

@Tilney you said this was a possible test of meningitis and I was wondering if you have more info on that?

I just got home from 8+ hours in the ER trying to determine if I have some form of meningitis from IVIG (all doctors said I do not) but I just tried your test out of curiosity while lying flat in bed and for the life of me, I cannot raise my legs in either position (pointed toes or flat toes). If you offered me a million dollars, I cannot do it.

No doctor has ever asked me to try this and I when I just read your post, I actually thought there was a chance I could do it but it is physically as impossible as me walking on water LOL. No idea if this confirms I really do have ME/CFS or if I just have incredibly weak muscle strength which I already knew.

 

[halcyon]

@Tilney you said this was a possible test of meningitis and I was wondering if you have more info on that?

I assume they were referring to the test looking for Kernig's/Brudzinski signs which involves lifting the leg, but it's the examiner that does it not the patient.

 

[taniaaust1]

I must be weird as I got strange results doing this. I tried with my toes pointing up in normal laying position first and could only get my heels about 1 or 2 cm off the bed but my calves were still touching the bed, I couldnt raise my legs far enough up to get my legs off bed. So I then tried it with toes pointed and can raise my legs up like that. I then went back to doing it the first way and on retrying found I could then do it.

Its like my body didnt know how to do it the first time I tried and as if I had to teach it how to do it by doing it an easier way with toes pointed first.

those of you who couldnt do it before with the toes facing up, try doing the toes pointed raise first and then the other one.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Interesting, Tania, and I am going to try this test again at a later point b/c I definitely cannot pass it now!

 

[erin]

My 80 years old mum did this absolutely noooo problem and I can't! I am very disappointed.

 

[rosie26]

I didn't try it with the toes pointed up yesterday so have only tried it now and that one is very hard to do. I felt a lot of pressure in the middle of my back and quickly stopped doing it because I didn't have enough strength and didn't want to do any damage, so be careful when doing it.

I did manage to get my feet up a little bit but the pressure/strain in the middle of my back could have done some damage if I had of continued. Feeling a bit sore in my lower back but think it will pass.

I think the reason the toes pointed outwards is easier is because it uses the muscles in the legs and whereas the toes pointed straight up feels like the muscles in the back are used. It did feel that way. I'll check this out later - I have a book on which muscles are used for different exercises.

 

[Groggy Doggy]

I was able to raise both legs in pointed/flexed inward, outward, up, down.

 

[Countrygirl]

I can't raise my legs with feet pointed up either. It places waaay too much strain on the spinal muscles.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I was able to raise both legs in pointed/flexed inward, outward, up, down.

Wow, I am so impressed. I cannot raise them beyond lifting my feet off the bed no matter how hard I try. It's actually quite bothering me to be honest! Am amazed you can do it and that is quite a feet (no pun intended LOL.) No idea if this relates to ME/CFS but just that I cannot do it .

 

[mango]

I'm aware that the specific movements you are discussing aren't the same as the 'passive supine straight leg raise' (SLR) that Dr Rowe used in his recently published study, but it made me wonder... what similarities are there between the two?

The following quote is from ME Research UK's recent article on Rowe's study and neuromuscular strain:

Passive SLR exerts a pulling force on a large range of structures (lower limb peripheral nerves, dorsal root ganglia, lumbosacral nerve roots, etc.) and probably gives an elongation strain to the entire length of the spinal cord.

Such increased mechanical strain may also cause the spinal blood vessels to narrow, and may stimulate mast cells to release biologically active substances, such as histamine, that worsen both acute and delayed symptoms.

Both manoeuvres seem to be recognised as "valid" ways to objectively measure physical impairments.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@mango interesting link re: the histamine connection. It just frustrates me that I cannot do this similar to that I cannot pass a spirometry test no matter how hard I try. I think with both that if I use enough willpower I can do it but I guess my muscles are much weaker than even I knew.

 

[valentinelynx]

Test of core muscle or proximal muscle strength. Don't know exactly why the doctor is testing for that - it could be a sign of some kind of myopathies, like in polymyositis. Or as someone suggested, some mitochondrial dysfunctions.

It seems to me to be a rather esoteric test done by physiotherapists or some orthopedists. It not like the traditional "straight leg raise" which is a passive test (the tester lifts the patient's leg) and which tests for sciatic nerve pain from nerve compression in the lumbar area. In any case, it is a test either of muscle strength or coordination. Nothing specific to ME/CFS that I'm aware of.

As for myself, I can do this easily. However, I worked hard on maintaining core muscle strength up until a year or so ago when I got much worse and couldn't do my resistance training any more.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@valentinelynx Would this test of core muscle strength (the leg lift test) ever correlate with lung or diaphragm strength? If I cannot pass a basic spirometry test and also cannot lift my legs for this test, are these two things related in your expert opinion (in general without giving medical advice of course)!

 

[PatJ]

I can lift both legs with toes pointed up or down. However, I wouldn't be able to do it more than a few times before muscle burn and fatigue set in (then probably some PEM). This is with muscles that have atrophied due to chronic catabolism and spending so much time bedbound.

I've never been officially diagnosed with CFS but I do fit the Canadian and International Consensus Criterias.

 

[IreneF]

I can do it, and I'm a volunteer in clinical studies of CFS/ME. If not being able to raise your legs is diagnostic of anything, it's not of this.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I can do it, and I'm a volunteer in clinical studies of CFS/ME. If not being able to raise your legs is diagnostic of anything, it's not of this.

I wonder if it's diagnostic of another neuromuscular disease? Am so curious now.

 

[Groggy Doggy]

I wonder if it's diagnostic of another neuromuscular disease? Am so curious now.

You are asking great questions!! You are on to something here. When I was in the ambulance this was the first test a paramedic performed. Then I was asked to repeat it, but with a paramedic pushing down on my ankles. So it definately does mean something, but don't know what.

Edited to add: It was the young paramedics that knew what ME/CFS was; and they knew exactly how to immediately treat me. They were not afraid to touch me. But in ER, when the MD heard I had ME/CFS, he did not touch me; instead he stayed as far away from me as possible, in the far corner of the room (on all 3 visits). The MD would not acknowledge my diagnosis or my symptoms, but was obviously afraid he might catch ME/CFS if he got too close.

So I think we are making progress in getting the word out about ME/CFS, atleast with the younger health care providers. But the established MDs, it's going to take a lot more to convince them.

 

[TigerLilea]

I wonder if it's diagnostic of another neuromuscular disease? Am so curious now.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with being deconditioned for those people with CFS who are bed/housebound and don't get much exercise??

 

[Sushi]

I wonder if it's diagnostic of another neuromuscular disease? Am so curious now.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with being deconditioned for those people with CFS who are bed/housebound and don't get much exercise??

I'd guess that neuromuscular disease could be involved for some but for most of us (and I am going by monitoring my own abilities during this long disease journey) it is likely to be poorly toned muscles for most of us. For those that are not able to do this, try "engaging the abs" before attempting it and see if it makes a difference. I tried without doing this and there is no way I could.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Groggy Doggy thats interesting the paramedics had you do that test in ambulance. I've now seen three neuromuscular docs (two useless and one good one who is now my doctor) but none of them nor a single doctor in my life has ever asked me to perform that test.

I just asked my husband (who is a bit out of shape compared to previous years
plus has hip/back pain and prior knee surgery) and he could easily lift both legs with toes in either position.

He thought I cannot do it b/c my core strength is so weak vs. my legs being weak. But we don't know beyond that. I am not bedbound and use a motorized wheelchair throughout the apt and a portable one outside. But I cannot stand or walk more than 30 to 60 seconds. It must all be related.