ME/CFS and thermodynamics

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I have a cognitive problem I can't solve and maybe some of you can shine some light on this

Myhill and co:

Glucose->glycolysis -->2ATP + 2Pyruvate + 2 NADH-> anaerobic metabolism due to lack of O2-> LDH (the carboxy group is reduced to a hydroxyl group by the absorption of H as a reducing agent) -> 2x lactate.

But: First law of thermodynamics: principle of conservation of energy. WHERE'S THE REST OF THE ENERGY ??? I think it’s more a problem with utilization rather the synthetisation. The energy just doesn’t get lost. Do I miss sth?

OR: Is the task of lactic acid fermentation: The molecule NAD + must be formed, which is then fed into glycolysis and can be maintained further. So question: Is the representation in the specialist books misleading and glycolysis is carried out until the entire energy of the glucose is consumed and in the end - after a much longer period of time - 32 ATP molecules are generated?
The whole problem with the lactate and pH value is excluded here.

Thank you!

 

[SWAlexander]

I have a cognitive problem I can't solve and maybe some of you can shine some light on this

Myhill and co:

Glucose->glycolysis -->2ATP + 2Pyruvate + 2 NADH-> anaerobic metabolism due to lack of O2-> LDH (the carboxy group is reduced to a hydroxyl group by the absorption of H as a reducing agent) -> 2x lactate.

But: First law of thermodynamics: principle of conservation of energy. WHERE'S THE REST OF THE ENERGY ??? I think it’s more a problem with utilization rather the synthetisation. The energy just doesn’t get lost. Do I miss sth?

OR: Is the task of lactic acid fermentation: The molecule NAD + must be formed, which is then fed into glycolysis and can be maintained further. So question: Is the representation in the specialist books misleading and glycolysis is carried out until the entire energy of the glucose is consumed and in the end - after a much longer period of time - 32 ATP molecules are generated?
The whole problem with the lactate and pH value is excluded here.

Thank you!

Maybe this helps.
ATP, Aerobic and Anaerobic Metabolism:

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Maybe this helps.
ATP, Aerobic and Anaerobic Metabolism:

Not really. This video doesn't touch the topic?

 

[Boba]

Can you apply the rules of thermodynamics to biochemical processes? Apart from that the anaerobic energy utilization process you describe is valid for healthy people. What if unhealthy people have altered pathways? You can easily „lose“ potential energy if a metabolite gets utilized differently or just partially. You wouldn’t „lose“ energy either way. It is important to know that potential energy still counts as energy, even if you don’t utilize it. Maybe I‘m getting the whole question wrong, sorry if so.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Can you apply the rules of thermodynamics to biochemical processes?

To everything in the universe from light to the whole globe.

even if you don’t utilize it

That's my point.

 

[SWAlexander]

One more possible: Anaerobic metabolism leads to a rise in lactate levels, which therefore can ... This usually is caused by inadequate tissue oxygen delivery as a result of ... https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/anaerobic-metabolism

Maybe it is about the insufficiency of oxygen delivery. You may also read about Spherocytosis.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Even ppl consider hin aß a quak sou might find eine answers Herr

I don't understand this sentence

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

One more possible: Anaerobic metabolism leads to a rise in lactate levels, which therefore can ... This usually is caused by inadequate tissue oxygen delivery as a result of ... https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/anaerobic-metabolism

Maybe it is about the insufficiency of oxygen delivery. You may also read about Spherocytosis.

I think you don't get my question. I understand the mechanism of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism... I just have a problem with the thermodynamics

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Solved: The lactate is also taken up again by the cells - more correctly channeled back into the energy metabolism.

Lactate is by no means a waste product of the anoxidative metabolism. Rather, it is used by many organs as an important source of energy - it is metabolized oxidatively, i.e. using oxygen.

The lactate is already broken down during exercise.
To do this, it is fundamentally necessary to oxidize it to pyruvate. Depending on the load, increasing amounts of it are supplied to the oxidative energy supply, the literature speaks of up to 83%.

The lactate is used both in the skeletal muscles and in the heart muscle. The heart covers up to 60% of its energy requirements under stress.

In contrast, lactate is built up in the liver with the use of energy via pyruvate to glucose. The resynthesis of lactate to glucose is called gluconeogenesis.

In other words: The energy of the pyruvate that fishes its energy from the glucose (-2 ATP) is contained in the lactate as an energy-rich carrier. Not surprising, since the structural formula is quite similar. It only has one more H atom.

 

[wabi-sabi]

In other words: The energy of the pyruvate that fishes its energy from the glucose (-2 ATP) is contained in the lactate as an energy-rich carrier. Not surprising, since the structural formula is quite similar. It only has one more H atom.

Right on!

Another thing to consider. When you think of thermodynamics you need to look at whether you are looking at an open or closed system. Open systems are leaky, in that they lose energy to the environment, maybe in the form of heat. I'm guessing that living creatures doing glycolysis are open systems so some of the energy of glucose is captured in ATP and some is lost to heat. Not lost overall-because thermodynamics-but lost to the cell. This is just a guess on my part.

How does this help you in your treatment?

 

[wabi-sabi]

contained in the lactate as an energy-rich carrier.

And brain cells might use this for energy!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/p...ortant,high metabolic demands or hypoglycemia.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Right on!

Another thing to consider. When you think of thermodynamics you need to look at whether you are looking at an open or closed system. Open systems are leaky, in that they lose energy to the environment, maybe in the form of heat. I'm guessing that living creatures doing glycolysis are open systems so some of the energy of glucose is captured in ATP and some is lost to heat. Not lost overall-because thermodynamics-but lost to the cell. This is just a guess on my part.

How does this help you in your treatment?

That would not work. The cells would heat up which influences every molecule in the cell (heat=kinetic energy). As a consequence the tertiary and quarterly structures of for example enzymes would break. The cell would die.

 

[wabi-sabi]

That would not work. The cells would heat up which influences every molecule in the cell (heat=kinetic energy). As a consequence the tertiary and quarterly structures of for example enzymes would break. The cell would die.

what if it's just a small amount of heat-like our muscles get warm when we exercise- or at least when healthy people exercise enough to make their muscles warm.

But I'm curious how knowing all this helps in your treatment?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

what if it's just a small amount of heat-like our muscles get warm when we exercise- or at least when healthy people exercise enough to make their muscles warm.

But I'm curious how knowing all this helps in your treatment?

It doesn't it was just a theoretical question.

Even in muscles it would be disastrous. Glycose is a very energy-rich molecule. That's why it needs a very complex pathway to be broken down to use it electrons for ATP synthesis... Otherwise you'd have a oxyhydrogen solution that wouldn't be too good ;-)

 

[wabi-sabi]

You might take a look at the work of Craig Heller. He's one of ours with OMF in Canada and does work on exercise physiology in healthy people. Making sure we really know how healthy people function so we can better compare us.