ME/CFS and ATP (intracellular)

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It's not ATP, I think!
I always asked myself why the f... do I have normal intracellular ATP but am so weak. I have a tube, 100% bedridden.

Here are test results of a friend of mine.

ATP way toooooo low!
After therapy for mitochondria (unfortunately he can't remember what he all had to take, but antivirals were included

ATP is high!
He reports that he doesn't feel ANY better now, whether physically nor mentally.

What do you think?
Btw: it's a reliable lab (IMD Berlin). Hospitals use it too. His practitioner is a well known Professor.

Martin

 

[Lisa108]

Had mine tested in 2017 (same test as above, IMD Berlin),
was 5.79 µM.

ETA: Didn't match with how I felt at the time, had to stop studying and became housebound.

 

[ljimbo423]

ATP is high!
He reports that he doesn't feel ANY better now, whether physically nor mentally.

What do you think?

I think most symptoms of ME/CFS are caused by activated microglia in the brain and low grade neuro-inflammation, as ME/CFS researcher Jarred Younger says, not mitochondrial issues.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I think most symptoms of ME/CFS are caused by activated microglia in the brain and low grade neuro-inflammation, as ME/CFS researcher Jarred Younger says, not mitochondrial issues.

I honestly doubt it. Had multiple cortisone shock therapies (1g methylprednisolone) which were ineffective. I think of inflammation as a downstream effect. But, how can I know?
But my Metabolon results tell a story of a highly impaired metabolism.

 

[ljimbo423]

I think of inflammation as a downstream effect.

I agree. I don't think this disease starts in the brain, with brain inflammation.

But, how can I know?

I don't think you can, the research isn't there.

None of us can know. I've just done thousands of hours of research and made a lot of connections which has helped me go from mostly bedridden to mostly mild.

All any of us have is our opinions about what might cause ME/CFS or what might help it.

I encourage you to stay curious, keep asking questions and keep looking for answers.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I agree. I don't think this disease starts in the brain, with brain inflammation.



I don't think you can, the research isn't there.

None of us can know. I've just done thousands of hours of research and made a lot of connections which has helped me go from mostly bedridden to mostly mild.

All any of us have is our opinions about what might cause ME/CFS or what might help it.

I encourage you to stay curious, keep asking questions and keep looking for answers.

Unfortunately hours of research make me crash

 

[ljimbo423]

Unfortunately hours of research make me crash

Don't give up hope Martin. You don't have to put in thousands of hours of research to find things that help you improve.

 

[MartinK]

I checked it too... result 5.69 µM in 2020.
Bedridden too.

 

[ljimbo423]

But my Metabolon results tell a story of a highly impaired metabolism.

The question I have, at least one of them, is can mitochondrial dysfunction cause profound fatigue IF there is still plenty of ATP being created?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

The question I have, at least one of them, is can mitochondrial dysfunction cause profound fatigue IF there is still plenty of ATP being created?

Yes. If the ATP isn’t being used for the cell. It shows research isn’t there yet.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It's not ATP, I think!

Stars aligned for me on Saturday. For about eight hours, my body behaved in a bouyant fashion, and moved about with some almost brisk vigor.

How is that possible, I am 100% beyond deconditioned?

That state was gone the next day. I could feel my muscles were a bit sore- from using them. But I didn't crash badly it seems, just SORT of.

No, I don't call that remission- but what it sure felt like was: finally some ATP fired.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Stars aligned for me on Saturday. For about eight hours, my body behaved in a bouyant fashion, and moved about with some almost brisk vigor.

How is that possible, I am 100% beyond deconditioned?

That state was gone the next day. I could feel my muscles were a bit sore- from using them. But I didn't crash badly it seems, just SORT of.

No, I don't call that remission- but what it sure felt like was: finally some ATP fired.

We always say „ATP“ but there thousands of metabolites which are important for the body’s functioning so ATP is not the only one. And I have been measured when I was extremely severe. ATP: 98.2%

 

[Wishful]

I agree. I don't think this disease starts in the brain, with brain inflammation.

I agree too. I think that immune system activation somewhere else in the body is the usual trigger, but it triggers the brain's immune system, and something keeps the latter in an abnormal state. It's not just neuroinflammation, which can be reduced by drugs. Temporary remission show that whatever it is can switch state very quickly (minutes), but that something keeps pushing it back into the abnormal state. That abnormal state affects brain function, so it results in a variety of symptoms. Since the brain has so much control over functions in the rest of the body, it can have all sorts of downstream effects, such as muscle metabolism and gut function, which in turn can cause additional neural abnormalities, causing more body abnormalities.

I still believe there's some fairly simple malfunction in some brain cells that is the root cause of ME.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I agree too. I think that immune system activation somewhere else in the body is the usual trigger, but it triggers the brain's immune system, and something keeps the latter in an abnormal state. It's not just neuroinflammation, which can be reduced by drugs. Temporary remission show that whatever it is can switch state very quickly (minutes), but that something keeps pushing it back into the abnormal state. That abnormal state affects brain function, so it results in a variety of symptoms. Since the brain has so much control over functions in the rest of the body, it can have all sorts of downstream effects, such as muscle metabolism and gut function, which in turn can cause additional neural abnormalities, causing more body abnormalities.

I still believe there's some fairly simple malfunction in some brain cells that is the root cause of ME.

Sorry didn't get it... It doesn't start in the brain but it starts in the brain cells?

 

[Wishful]

Sorry didn't get it... It doesn't start in the brain but it starts in the brain cells?

I think that there's a genetic or epigenetic factor or factors that make some of our brain cells susceptible to locking up in the ME state, and that's triggered by activation of the brain's immune system (glial cells). The glial cells can be triggered by activation of immune cells elsewhere in the body, from a microbial infection or various other triggers. Once the ME state is triggered, there are changes in body chemistry that holds the key cells in that abnormal state. Maybe the core dysfunction is quite rapidly responding, but those other body chemistry factors are slow to change, so if we get a temporary remission, those other factors push us back into the ME state. Figuring out those other factors is a daunting task, although I can imagine AI eventually solving it.