Maybe over methylated

[Nanni]

I always want to say thank you to this forum. I got this in 2011 and you have been my salvation. Quick question, hard to type even.very shaky. In the summer I got a handle on SIBO. I took good herbal antibiotics fc-cidal and dysbiocide. After 2 months I stopped kinda cheating on my diet but not bad.. after stopping I had maybe one good week and then terrible fatigue that I hadn’t felt for awhile unless after over doing it. I started running across info on thiamine. I started doing mthfr b complex one a day, a coq10 , pea a little sag not for long inositol once. Haven’t done any of those for a couple of weeks. I have been trying NAG for about a week. Last night I took Tylenol with it. Big mistake. Felt like a niacin rush with burning tingling etc.
Today I’m worse. Super tight chest Not heart stuff don’t have any issues with that but so uncomfortable . Stomach bad too. Like anxiety but it’s not head related.
If I overdid methylation what reverses it. What else could it be . Thanks

 

[Nanni]

Oops didn’t say anything about thiamine. I took 1000 mg a day for 2 weeks and took extra b2 and only 1 week of SAG

 

[linusbert]

overmethylation can be potentially treated with niacinamid , it acts like a sponge for methyl groups.

did you have a flu recently, like corona? or vaccine?
i have the feeling that those rise my allergenic and asthma potential. i am not vaxed, but after every time of corona which itself is mild for me, i am suffering for weeks with stomach issues and increased allergen potential.

 

[Judee]

I think some of what you are taking maybe be sulfur based. Idk.

Plus, I don't have a good understanding of SIBO but I think I've read that it is caused by something to do with Hydrogen Sulfide. Where some of us have problems with processing sulfur/thiols, I wonder if you have a build up of them and your liver is having a hard time clearing it all between the supplements and the SIBO. ??

Maybe you need a wash out period and then to go back on the herbal antifungals for a while after the washout.

Just found this: https://www.metagenicsinstitute.com/pulse_patrol/plp-eps-5-sibo-sulfur/
Transcript (down the page a bit) is too long for me to read it right now but in one of the beginning paragraphs it mentions: "...small intestinal bowel overgrowth and the patterns that you’re seeing with sulfur metabolism."

Also, if the chest discomfort continues please do get checked out by a doctor even if you think it is only related to these supplements.

 

[Judee]

@Nanni, are you starting to feel better now?

 

[Nanni]

Thank you for that quote. Really inspiring. I always try to get to some lemonade when these trying episodes happen. It’s good for getting me back to some good thinking habits, breathing, exercise etc. Today.I took 500 mg. Of niacinamide this morning. I’m wondering how long it usually takes to sponge up the methyl. I’ve been surprised that i feel as bad as i do given all I’ve been taking, magnesium, kava, baclofen, melatonin annd an herbal sleep tonic, even been on milk thistle for liver health for a year now. It’s now been weeks since i took thiamine and all the methyl boosters.I didn’t take them for very long but i did pile a lot on all at once. I guess the moderation motto for those of us mecfs is still difficult for me. I just want to make sure there’s not something else going on or in addition to overmethylation. Anything i could be missing? And what dosage of niacinamide is recommended for this moping up. Will it take days or weeks to do the job?

Symptom wise I have that ms hug thing going on, more like a bear hug. Very hard to breathe, I cant imagine any heart stuff. I still have low blood pressure and cholesterol is very good. I’m also very shakey, much more than the usual at 69 yr, Stomach feels like I’m about to go on stage and this is a weird one, when i go from active to lying down, kind of the opposite of POTs, my heart pounds not racing, pounding. Weird.. And this while on so much calming stuff annd especially baclofen which is for tight muscles. I know this wasn’t triggered by new stress but now i have to do a lot to keep it from creating new stress.

 

[Nanni]

overmethylation can be potentially treated with niacinamid , it acts like a sponge for methyl groups.

did you have a flu recently, like corona? or vaccine?
i have the feeling that those rise my allergenic and asthma potential. i am not vaxed, but after every time of corona which itself is mild for me, i am suffering for weeks with stomach issues and increased allergen potential.

I explored possibly having MAST about 6 months ago and didn’t see any change in my symptoms. I have some food intolerance and maybe now more sensitive to certain supplements which is pretty new for me.I can feel a little bit like the flushing from the 500mg. Of niacinamide which I don’t think is meant to happen. Not bad but noticeable. I’m vaccinated but I was surprised to not have a reaction. I’m not taking anything but the niacin, kava and magnesium today. I just can’t wait to get a handle on this. And I have my 6month check in with my doctor today. I don’t even know what to say anymore.

 

[Nanni]

I think some of what you are taking maybe be sulfur based. Idk.

Plus, I don't have a good understanding of SIBO but I think I've read that it is caused by something to do with Hydrogen Sulfide. Where some of us have problems with processing sulfur/thiols, I wonder if you have a build up of them and your liver is having a hard time clearing it all between the supplements and the SIBO. ??

Maybe you need a wash out period and then to go back on the herbal antifungals for a while after the washout.

Just found this: https://www.metagenicsinstitute.com/pulse_patrol/plp-eps-5-sibo-sulfur/
Transcript (down the page a bit) is too long for me to read it right now but in one of the beginning paragraphs it mentions: "...small intestinal bowel overgrowth and the patterns that you’re seeing with sulfur metabolism."

Also, if the chest discomfort continues please do get checked out by a doctor even if you think it is only related to these supplements.

Thank you for this info. I’m going to pin down my husband to read it for me. I didn’t know about sulphur issues. I feel like something more is going on. That could be it. Btw What would be a washout. That sounds good. I’m doing some saunas lately that feel helpful. Is there any rebound effect from stopping your supplements cold turkey as it were. I have been doing this for a few days and have a headache which I don’t usually get headaches.
And I happen to be seeing my doc today for my bi annual check up so I’ll be able to see about my chest.

 

[Judee]

Btw What would be a washout.

A washout just means stop taking everything for a few days and allow your system to sort things out and then add things back in but just one thing at a time to see if it's causing the issue.

Looking at all you've mentioned I have a feeling you're on too much for our super sensitive ME bodies. Your body probably can't handle all that at once so it's sending up alarms and red flags.

 

[linusbert]

I explored possibly having MAST about 6 months ago and didn’t see any change in my symptoms. I have some food intolerance and maybe now more sensitive to certain supplements which is pretty new for me.I can feel a little bit like the flushing from the 500mg. Of niacinamide which I don’t think is meant to happen. Not bad but noticeable. I’m vaccinated but I was surprised to not have a reaction. I’m not taking anything but the niacin, kava and magnesium today. I just can’t wait to get a handle on this. And I have my 6month check in with my doctor today. I don’t even know what to say anymore.

niacinamid/nicotinamid usually doesnt cause flushing, but maybe its possible for very sensible? - not sure though.
500mg is quite a large dose.
usually if you try to handle overmethylation, you would do 50mg , and every 30 minutes another 50mg until a max dose is reached OR symptoms go away. not sure what that dose was, 500mg maybe?

what causes flushing usually is niacin/nicotinic acid.
inositol-hexanicotinate shouldnt cause flushing as well.

maybe its also a histamin reaction because i can imagine 500mg might swallow your methylgroups and somewhat reduce histamin metabolism. not sure either. but i think methylation needs to be in balance to properly work for histamin.

maybe your supplement isnt clean and also contains some nicotinic acid.

is there a reason you take such a large dose?

 

[Nanni]

I actually couldn’t find info about the dosage of niacinamide to take for mopping up overmethylation. The 500 mg. was what I found.Thank you so much for the proper guidelines. I will continue the process this way with the lower dose. I’m definitely better today I’m sure from that one high dose I took yesterday as uncomfortable as it was, it helped. Not so shaky today , breathing is better. I happened to have my bi annual yesterday and got my heart checked out. I had some fluttering going on but that’s nothing to worry about. I’m amazed how much this overmethylation triggered, the anxiety took on a life of its own. I got into this pickle because I started having really bad fatigue I hadn’t felt for years. I don’t really know why it happened but I obviously overdid it when trying to correct it. I think my battle with Sibo is key and the article Judee linked is very interesting. The whole sulphur and SIBO connection is complex and important. Thank you all for your help.

 

[linusbert]

I actually couldn’t find info about the dosage of niacinamide to take for mopping up overmethylation. The 500 mg. was what I found.Thank you so much for the proper guidelines. I will continue the process this way with the lower dose. I’m definitely better today I’m sure from that one high dose I took yesterday as uncomfortable as it was, it helped. Not so shaky today , breathing is better. I happened to have my bi annual yesterday and got my heart checked out. I had some fluttering going on but that’s nothing to worry about. I’m amazed how much this overmethylation triggered, the anxiety took on a life of its own. I got into this pickle because I started having really bad fatigue I hadn’t felt for years. I don’t really know why it happened but I obviously overdid it when trying to correct it. I think my battle with Sibo is key and the article Judee linked is very interesting. The whole sulphur and SIBO connection is complex and important. Thank you all for your help.

thats interesting, so your breathing got better with 500mg nicotinamid?
i might try this as well. have the feeling when i take b vitamins my asthma and allergies are getting worse. maybe its overmethylation as well.

 

[Nanni]

I’m a little bit worse this afternoon than I was this morning. I had to go out to get the lower dose niacin and so far I’ve taken 200mg. and no flushing. The reaction I had yesterday to the 500 mg. dosage was mild and was helpful because I got some good results later that night and I desperately wanted some relief but in general I’m sure slow and steady is the way to go. If I hadn’t been certain it wasn’t heart or lung related I would have been very worried. I had to really work to breathe and I was so shaky trembling from the ordeal so I can well imagine it feeling like asthma.

 

[Judee]

I’m a little bit worse this afternoon than I was this morning.

Aww...@Nanni.

Please take care of yourself and rest as much as possible.

 

[Mary]

@Nanni - You've been taking so many things, I think it's hard to tell what is doing what to you. A good rule of thumb is to only try one new thing at a time, in order to tell what does what to you.

Also, I always use muscle testing to help me determine if something is good for me and, also, what type of dose to take. I think it's best to have it done, initially at least, by an experienced competent practitioner - very often a chiropractor. Some of them are pretty amazing in what they can do via muscle testing.

You said you took 1000 mg thiamine for a few weeks - that's a high dose. When I first started taking thiamine (100 mg) it gave me a very nice boost in energy and then a day or 2 later was hit with severe fatigue. It's a long story but it turned out the thiamine was depleting my phosphorus, I believe due to refeeding syndrome, and that was causing the severe fatigue. The way this works is, the thiamine increased my need for phosphorous (my body had adapted to being low in thiamine) and so when I added in thiamine, it needed more phosphorous to process it, which depleted my phosphorous.

Anyways, there are a lot of possibilities for your current condition. I don't know what to tell you except you might look into muscle testing. Also, it might be good for you to get Nutreval testing done - Medicare will pay for this. It checks the levels of amino acids, fatty acids, all kinds of nutrients, you name it. I've had it done twice by Medicare and should probably get it done again. It might give you some clues as to what is going on.

 

[linusbert]

I always use muscle testing to help me determine if something is good for me and

how to do that?

it turned out the thiamine was depleting my phosphorus,

so when you took phosphorus, you did get the energy boost from thiamine again?

 

[Mary]

how to do that?

@linusbert - muscle testing is also called applied kinesiology and there's lots of info on line about it. I can't explain in a few words. I first had it done in the mid-1990's by a chiropractor (after getting no help from regular doctors for years) and he (the chiro) was able to help me. It can be tricky to do and though you can do it on yourself (lots of youtube videos about this) I recommend that someone initially at least work with an experienced practitioner as the results can be affected by your state of mind and other things - it seems to be most commonly done by chiropractors.

It's helped me with my adrenals, a lot with my digestion and detoxing and also has helped me a lot in determining what supplements are good for me and dosing.

I like Sten Ekberg a lot - he's a former Swedish Olympian (works in the U.S. now) and he's very precise and thorough - so you might start with this video:

 

[Mary]

Okay, was not expecting that with the video! But if you do click on "Watch on YouTube", it goes right to the video -

 

[Mary]

so when you took phosphorus, you did get the energy boost from thiamine again?

Yes and no. The phosphorous relieved the phosphorous deficiency caused by the thiamine and thus that horrible fatigue (symptom of low phosphorous) went away. Overall I feel better since starting the thiamine several years ago, though I don't have the amazing boost of energy that I initially had. And I still have to take phosphorous.

It's like what methylfolate did to me when I started it in 2010. Initial boost in energy followed quickly a day or 2 later by severe fatigue, but that time the problem was low potassium. The mechanism was the same - my body had adapted to being low in folate so when I added it in, it increased my need for potassium causing a functional potassium deficiency. I started taking potassium and titrated up to 1000 mg a day (in divided doses) over a couple of days until the fatigue went away. And I still have to take potassium daily.

btw, muscle testing helped me determine that it was low phosphorous which caused the severe fatigue with the thiamine.

Also, it's very common for people with ME/CFS to have their potassium tank when starting methylation with either B12 or folate. There are a lot of people on PR who have experienced this - this helps explain why: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291422

 

[linusbert]

very interesting, but as far as i see this , for applied kinesiology you need a practictioner who does the testing on you. and he must be a good one too. i guess you have one?
and there are a ton of things which can influence this, like ekberg says.
to make use of this you would need to test it alot and therefore i think you must have a tester in house (nobody has) or somehow can do it on yourself.
how do you do it?

what phosphorus and potassium do you take?

btw, dr Ekberg i also like to watch. Especially his i ate a zillion eggs for a month, this happend to blood before and after.