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Lyme disease subverts the immune system, prevents future protection

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I wonder if this means rebooting the immune system in some cases of Lyme would be a wasted exercise.

Of course, this is only a mouse study, so unwise to extrapolate.

Thank you for posting, @bertiedog . Nicole Baumgarth is a force of nature.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,736
Location
South East England, UK
I wonder if it partly explains my permanently low lymphocyte count and the way I keep picking up viruses. However since being on Cowden protocol for 10 months my energy is hugely better but not my immune system, though I do think there are improvements even with that because the last 2 viruses last month I got over in 3 days each time.

At least that is progress but it isn't reflecting in my white blood cell count which is just below the reference range as usual.

Pam
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,736
Location
South East England, UK
Did you also read the link about borrelia taking cover in the lymph nodes (Underneath the above link)? I definitely have problems with my lymph especially in the neck and sinus area. I don't remember ever having sinus problems but since this Spring I have had very painful sinuses for weeks on end at least twice.

Its good to find research which bares out one's own experience.

Pam
 

valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
Having important implications for the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of immune-based testing

Suppression of Long-Lived Humoral Immunity Following Borrelia burgdorferi Infection

  • Rebecca A. Elsner,
  • Christine J. Hastey,
  • Kimberly J. Olsen,
  • Nicole Baumgarth
logo.plos.95.png


  • Published: July 2, 2015
  • DOI: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1004976

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1004976
 

Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
Here is the link to a study regarding Lyme and B cells, hence posting in this forum -
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=11254
Pam
This is very interesting.
So if the key to borrelia's persistence is this attack on memory B-cells, how do you fight this infection? Would some sort of "vaccine-like" process or therapy help get rid of the infection for good? Could we harvest the proper defense mechanism against the spirochete from healthy people and inject it on those affected long term until the body effectively kills the infection?
 
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Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
I wonder if it partly explains my permanently low lymphocyte count and the way I keep picking up viruses.
Same here. Cd57 and Cd8 are consistently way below healthy levels, NK function also below normal, but then I get random spikes of CD19 B cells. Whatever I have has done a number in my immune system.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,736
Location
South East England, UK
Unfortunately it doesn't look like there is much interest in this which seems a great pity after all the massive threads on Ruituximab and the likelihood that many patients who have ME/CFS also are infected with borrelia!

Pam
 
Messages
15,786
Unfortunately it doesn't look like there is much interest in this which seems a great pity after all the massive threads on Ruituximab and the likelihood that many patients who have ME/CFS also are infected with borrelia!
It's a preliminary study in the area (still using mice) hence far from having a practical application, and the connection between Lyme and ME is quite theoretical. While it is potentially exciting, it's really still just a potential.

I'm also not sure it would directly tie in to Rituximab. The problem discussed in that paper regarding Lyme seems to be with the production of B cells as regulated by altered lymph nodes, rather than the circulating B cells in isolation. And since Rituximab (if I understand correctly) wipes out existing B cells but doesn't affect underlying production processes, and/or lymph nodes.

If anything, it might be an indication that Rituximab would not help in patients with an ongoing abnormal immune response due to Lyme. It seems like the underlying problem could still be present after B cells are depleted, and the malfunctioning lymph tissue would continue to produce B cells which react inappropriately to Lyme and/or other infections.

Maybe @Jonathan Edwards has some thoughts on how that all might work, since he seems to know a lot more about B cells and Rituximab than we do :p
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Of course, the connection between ME and most diseases is quite theoretical.

The issue would be not conflating late stage Lyme with ME, but this is not the same is precluding Lyme as a trigger mechanism of ME. Theoretically.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
It's a preliminary study in the area (still using mice) hence far from having a practical application, and the connection between Lyme and ME is quite theoretical. While it is potentially exciting, it's really still just a potential

As is Thyroid, Adrenal fatigue and a few others I can't think of at the moment. They may be real but the same symptoms don't mean the same medical condition.

Many press releases from the institutions where these studies are conducted often use a very liberal interpretation about the implications of a study. Sometimes the scientist aren't aware how the press releases are presented as happened in Colorado*. Then the media prints the press release, often verbatim.

Unfortunately, these statements are not written by scientists but the PR people within the institution.

Who knows it may pan out. Certainly worthwhile to discuss, but it appears way too early to make definitive conclusions.

Barb

*I will add source later.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
The issue would be not conflating late stage Lyme with ME, but this is not the same is precluding Lyme as a trigger mechanism of ME

I think that's an important distinction and most likely what happens. Another hit and run causation.

I guess time will tell.

Barb
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Sometimes I get the sense that Lyme patients have more to prove to than other ME/CFS patients. Relative to a group of patients having the same symptoms: If it quacks like a duck, odds are...

A Grand Irony would be if it turns out the unifying factor in ME/CFS are TBD's.
 
What can be surmised from the UC Davis study is if it is humoral immunity that is lowered,the part of the immune system that makes antibodies,it makes the CDC antibody tests for Lyme even more pointless .Futhermore, despite pain we would show normal for all auto-immune tests and inflammatory makers since it become a disease of immune deficiency but we could expect dormant viruses to reactivate. Then throw in these limp B-cells on top.If that does not sound like a brief synopsis of what we now know of M.E,I don't know what does.Bring on the Rituximab for everyone!