Lowering catecholamines

[Azrael]

Hey

Was wondering: what else is good to lower catecholamines apart from the supplement BCAA ?

The major problem is noradrenaline and adrenaline, serotonin and dopamine is not the big problem.

Any specific vitamines?

I don't have the full picture of my problems yet, but im getting there on my own.

Doing tests over here in sweden or having anything to do with the health system is a nightmare. They are completely full of themself, incompetent and yes they are idiots too.

So I have been spending the last 2-3 years reading and supplementing myself in a trial and error approach.

Going to order a kit from 23andme hopefully within a months time to get some more exact answers.

I will be posting more here along the way to a better "me".

 

[Emootje]

Avoiding sucrose is one thing you could do:

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v21/n10/pdf/0800494a.pdf

 

[Azrael]

Okay so pretty much eating less carbs and sugar. Im already eating very little sugar, no sodas and candy apart from some chocolate every now and then.

I think the problem with less carbs for me is that I would lose too much weight. Already tough to keep my weight as it is.

 

[Kimsie]

This is a subject near my heart, being the mother of a young man who has schizophrenia. COMT is the enzyme that gets rid of the catecholamines. In order to function COMT has to have niacin and SAMe, which donates the methyl group to degrade the catecholamines.

In order to have sufficient SAMe your methylation cycle has to be working, so you have to have enough folate ( we use 5 mg a day )(either folinic acid or methyl folate is best) and B12 ( one or two 5000mcg a day )(the sublingual methyl B12 tablets work fine for most people).

If you have a lot of noradrenaline, you don't want to take a bunch of folate and B12 without having niacin (or niacinamide is better because it doesn't give you the flush, a harmless but sometimes painful reddening of the skin) or you might experience anxiety from having enough SAMe without the niacin for the COMT. I am not sure if niacin is an integral part of COMT or a cofactor. If you take 500mg of niacinamide that shouldn't be a problem.

If you take these three things and they help for a couple of days, but then stop working, you probably need more niacinamide twice a day. You can see my post about a new paradigm for CFS if you want to know more about this.

 

[Azrael]

Hi Kimsie

I feel with your son, but you seem to know enough to change the course. Is he better though?

Do you feel you can do more for your son than healthcare can with all the antipsychotics they eagerly prescribes?

2 weeks ago I started with FREDDD B-12 Treatment....very slowly.

I felt really warm and stable and on the right way the first and second day, got worse on the 3rd day and been like that since then. Started to slow down completely after 4 days, just to cope with all the changes, as of now just taking small small doses every day.

One thing I do not have on it's own is niacine or niacinamide, I do have it in jarrows right b-complex. But if folate and b12 or sam-e is in majority compared with niacinamide, I should not take jarrows right b-complex to have any of those go up even more.

So what I should do right away is ordering a bottle of niacinamide just in case.

Any brand you favor better than others ?

 

[Kimsie]

Hi Azrael,

What you are describing, with it helping on the first and 2nd day and then it stopped working is what I was referring to in my last post and why you need the niacinamide. This is exactly what happened to one of my son's, not the one with schizophrenia, but one with depression. This means that the B12 works for you and you got an increase in SAMe for a couple of days but then your body readjusted because the mechanism for controlling the amount of SAMe you make uses high levels of SAMe to give the signal that it should stop making as much.

I believe that the most likely reason that your body doesn't want to produce enough SAMe is because you have bacteria in your gut that is producing histamine when you eat, so your histamine levels are higher during the day than at night. Since SAMe also supplies the methyl group to get rid of histamine, in addition to the one for COMT (it does a lot of things!) you need more SAMe during the day than you do at night and your body is ending up regulating the amount of SAMe so that you have extra at night and not enough during the day because when you have the extra at night it is inhibiting the enzymes that produce SAMe. It takes 2 or 3 days for the body to change the amounts of the enzymes making (actually recycling) SAMe, it can't make significantly more or less at night than it does during the day.

Since SAMe also supplies the methyl group to degrade excess niacin in the body, and I believe that niacin metabolism is a very low priority job for SAMe, taking enough niacin so that you have an excess gives the SAMe something to do when your histamine levels are lower at night and this will stop it from inhibiting itself at a level that is too low for your needs during the day. I call this a buffering effect.

I didn't quite understand this question "But if folate and b12 or sam-e is in majority compared with niacinamide, I should not take jarrows right b-complex to have any of those go up even more." but here is my answer to what I think you were saying:

Keep taking your B complex but just get some niacinamide and start taking it and try to work up to maybe 1 gm with breakfast and 500 mg with dinner and maybe 1 gm before bed. Then you can start taking more B12 and also you may or may not need more folate but to be on the safe side you might want to take it but don't take folic acid, try to get either folinic acid or methyl folate. It will probably take about 2-3 days for the B12 to start working again after you start taking the niacinamide. I don't think it matters what brand of niacinamide.

This protocol seems to help my son with schizophrenia to have less brain fog and less negative symptoms, but so far he still needs to take medication. It is too soon to really tell with him. The protocol is helping my son who has depression a lot, I would say it has obliterated his symptoms except when he has extra stress such as today he has a cold.

 

[Azrael]

I truly appreciate you writing that much to me.

I just ordered a bottle of niacinamide, will take a few days.

I did take b-complex today but only a small small dose. I get worse if I take more. I will need to put a break on the active b12 vitamins im taking as well atleast for now.

By the way how can one diagnose IF it really is bacteria in the gut producing excess histamine ?

I hope both of your sons will get alot better with both vitamines and support from a good mother. Mental issues in families can really rip apart hopes and dreams.

I will keep you posted when I try my first niacinamide tablet, if it's not working - it's not working. Then I will have to take another approach on all this.

 

[Kimsie]

Well, one dose of niacinamide might help you, but you might need to take it for longer then that to see the results you want. If your body isn't low on B12 and folate then just taking the niacinamide for a few days should be very helpful.

The fact that you were helped by B12 for a couple of days and then it stopped working supports the idea that you have histamine producing bacteria in the gut, and I know that there are blood tests and urine tests for histamine, but it would probably just be easier and cheaper to try taking the vitamins for a week or so and see if it seems to be helping. You probably need to work up to a minimum of 500 mg 3 times a day on the niacinamide. You will probably be able to tolerate other B vitamins better after starting the niacinamide.

What symptoms get worse when you take B vitamins?

 

[Azrael]

Hi

Did not feel good at all when I woke up in the bed this morning, very hot, tingling sensation on hands and feet. One second I have plenty of saliva in my mouth the other second it's gone. Sinus dry instead of runny. Also slightly racing thoughts and on the way to going panic but never do.

My guess would be that it's the noradrenaline talking

I took very little jarrows b-complex (active components) yesterday and until I get the niacineamide im not taking them any longer. I tolerate inactive b-complex though but it's never going to heal me. Just like you are saying something is missing, perhabst it is the niacinamide, I hope you are right.

Just took a BCAA 30 min ago and it's starting to take me down to the ground again. That's why you are seeing me write this post.

Also:

When I started taking B12 some week ago, it was not the only vitamin I tried, I also took methylfolate.

I seem to feel better taking only small small dose methylfolate than taking only B12. So im also taking a full break on B12 for the time being.

So regarding the histamine blood/urine test:

I visitied a allergologist 4 weeks ago and asked fro such a test to measure exactly how much histamine is running in my veins and the exact words after speaking with her boss was that such a test is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to them perhabst but not to me.

According to my doctor this is something they do not do ANYWHERE in my country.

Perhabst I could take such a test through a private doctor, but that's for another time.

Im off to get some rest.

 

[Kimsie]

It sounds like noradrenaline to me, too.

When you get the niacinamide, you should be able to tolerate the B vitamins. The folate and the B12 will help you recycle SAMe, but you need the niacinamide so that your body can control the amount of noradrenaline so you are wise not to take too much until you get the niacinamide.

You don't really need a test. Just try the niacinamide and I think you will find some answers that way.

 

[Azrael]

It's gone a couple of months, yay new year. Anyway I never got any great results from the niacineamid, pretty much the same symptoms from when I take "too much bcaa". It looks like acetylcholine raises a bit too high. I know, I never mentioned that in this thread before. Therefor I take it only every now and then.

I tried tmg, very powerful stuff, but with everything I can only take small doses and not every day after each other.

Feels like im already due to finish a gene test so that's what im planning to order in the next weeks.

Are you doing any progress yourself?

 

[Kimsie]

Yes, see my post about magnesium.