Low Stomach Acid and High Uric Acid

[Peyt]

I thought taking HCl sounded odd. Betaine HCl is not HCl, it is a zwitterion associated with a hydrogen ion and a chloride ion. In solution it will release hydrogen ions and make the solution acidic, but probably not very much. All I would have thought it would do is give your kidneys a bit more work to do in excreting chloride. I cannot think that it would have any significant effect on stomach pH and from what I can see on the net that has not been found. Anyway I think it is going to have nothing to do with uric acid unless the betaine part competes with urate in the kidney tubules.

What do you mean?
I am going to go with the way I feel not theory!
Reality:
Eating a Meal without an acidic supplement for me = bloating within 20 min. after eating and gas and undigested food the next day
Eating a Meal with an acidic supplement = No bloating or gas at all and food gets digested, I feel less heavy and have more energy.

I am not sure where your sources are when you say "I cannot think that it would have any significant effect on stomach pH and from what I can see on the net that has not been found"
but there are tons of people all over the net that say HCI has helped them, especially people that have SIBO(Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) like me...

Here are some links for you to see people's experience first hand:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2675412
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=1871661
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/240098-betaine-hcl.html

I really don't want to spend more time proving to you that supplementing with HCI is an effective way of combating gas/bloating "FOR THOSE WHO HAVE A DEFICIENCY" in it... that's really waste of time and energy for me...
But it sounds to me that your information is limited to conventional medicine and I and many others on this board are open to functional and alternative medicine and so we are having a clash... So please broaden your scope...
I am looking for answers and I am here because conventional medicine could not help me and I have helped myself by educating myself in alternative and functional medicine which has helped me ... I need positive energy to keep me going not doubt just because what is helping me is not mentioned in the conventional medicine's text books!

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am not sure where your sources are when you say "I cannot think that it would have any significant effect on stomach pH and from what I can see on the net that has not been found"
but there are tons of people all over the net that say HCI has helped them, especially people that have SIBO(Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) like me...

But in a sense that is the whole point of what I am saying. If it makes people feel better that's fine but it has nothing to do with the muddled chemistry about stomach acid that gets put on websites. It just makes people feel better - somehow. I am agreeing that everyone should forget the theory - because it has no basis in reality.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Peyt
There is a warning about magnesium supplementation that I would like to bring to your attention:
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#warn
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#wronggeorge
Always titrate up slowly. There is no point in doing it if you don't feel any better.

I too came to a P2P board because conventional medicine only made me feel worse and told me it was all in my head.

I have read a lot around and got a huge help from other patients' reports with their self experimentations.

I don't mean any disrespect, I do find great to have doctors taking part in the discussions, I like to learn biochemistry, but it would be also constructive to have some useful suggestions rather than just pursuing scientific correctness "by-the-book". I think clinical evidence can be just as important as scientific research, because there are things that will never get money for research and all we will have is clinical evidence anyway.

I think what you eat does influence how your stomach responds... Some foods will cause GERD, other foods will not...
If stomach acidity wasn't a problem, everyone here would absorb B12 well for instance... And I believe that treating these problems with food, minerals and vitamins is better than with medicines.

 

[Peyt]

But in a sense that is the whole point of what I am saying. If it makes people feel better that's fine but it has nothing to do with the muddled chemistry about stomach acid that gets put on websites. It just makes people feel better - somehow. I am agreeing that everyone should forget the theory - because it has no basis in reality.

Okay, let me explain this in a conventional medicine way for you,... This is how my GI Dr. who is well versed in SIBO and is from Cedar Cyanide Hospital explained it to me when I told him acidic supplements help me:

In the case of SIBO, the bacteria from the large intestine travels from the large intestine and enters the small intestine(where it's not suppose to be). The main portion of this bacteria sits at the end of small intestine (I believe it's called ileum). This bacteria feasts on undigested foods and after eating produces either a Hydrogen or Methane gas(which causes the bloating) ... The reason why acidic supplements and digestive enzymes are helpful is because they help breakdown the food in earlier parts of the intestine, so by the time it gets to ilenum there is no nutritional value for the bacteria to eat, therefore you don't feel the bloating and gas that you normally feel..... Same idea goes with certain diets that are suggested to SIBO patients... The reason certain foods are prohibited for SIBO patients is because those foods take longer to breakdown in the intestine ... The longer it takes for them to breakdown the more nutrition when it gets to the ilenum for the bacteria to feast on....

 

[Peyt]

@Peyt
There is a warning about magnesium supplementation that I would like to bring to your attention:
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#warn
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#wronggeorge
Always titrate up slowly. There is no point in doing it if you don't feel any better.

I too came to a P2P board because conventional medicine only made me feel worse and told me it was all in my head.

I have read a lot around and got a huge help from other patients' reports with their self experimentations.

I don't mean any disrespect, I do find great to have doctors taking part in the discussions, I like to learn biochemistry, but it would be also constructive to have some useful suggestions rather than just pursuing scientific correctness "by-the-book". I think clinical evidence can be just as important as scientific research, because there are things that will never get money for research and all we will have is clinical evidence anyway.

I think what you eat does influence how your stomach responds... Some foods will cause GERD, other foods will not...
If stomach acidity wasn't a problem, everyone here would absorb B12 well for instance... And I believe that treating these problems with food, minerals and vitamins is better than with medicines.

Thanks, I have found great benefit from every post you have put up here. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

@Peyt

I don't mean any disrespect, I do find great to have doctors taking part in the discussions, I like to learn biochemistry, but it would be also constructive to have some useful suggestions rather than just pursuing scientific correctness "by-the-book". I think clinical evidence can be just as important as scientific research, because there are things that will never get money for research and all we will have is clinical evidence anyway.

I think what you eat does influence how your stomach responds... Some foods will cause GERD, other foods will not...
If stomach acidity wasn't a problem, everyone here would absorb B12 well for instance... And I believe that treating these problems with food, minerals and vitamins is better than with medicines.

The problem is that I was never a CSF/ME doctor - I am only here because I was asked to advise by a charity and got interested after retiring. So I don't have any useful suggestions to make - I really wish I did. All I can do is to listen to what patients say about their experiences - which I do on a daily basis - to try to glean some ideas about what would be the most useful research to do. So all this stuff is hugely useful to me. Maybe I shouldn't comment on the theory but it seems to me a pity to take treatments because of bad theories. By all means take them because they help but the trouble with a lot of websites is that they give theories that sound like chemistry but aren't. I have no problem with alternative medicine, but I don't think there is such a thing as 'alternative biochemistry'. Hydrochloric acid is hydrochloric acid, not betaine hydrochloride or citric acid - the words mean what they mean, not something else.

I absolutely agree that what we eat influences how our stomach responds. In fact I absolutely know that. Cooked cheese causes me violent indigestion. And as I say the radiologists use Mars bars to show that.

 

[Gondwanaland]

But stomach HCl does vary with what you eat/drink/take... I can feel it!

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

But stomach HCl does vary with what you eat/drink/take... I can feel it!

Yes, I agreed. So can I !

 

[rosie26]

That was interesting about the mars bar. I remember in my late teens eating the largest size mars bar and was immediately sick after it. I have never been keen on mars bars since.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

You must be young Rosie. When I was a teenager there was only one size of Mars bar. It cost 4d (denarius or old penny as it came to be called) which is equivalent to 1 US cent now. I had one most days. I now only eat them for nostalgia - they are disgusting and I always regret it.

 

[Sasha]

Radiologists do a thing called a Mars bar barium meal where you look at the stomach once and then after a Mars bar.

That's amazing - an NHS test that comes with a free Mars Bar!

 

[rosie26]

You must be young Rosie. When I was a teenager there was only one size of Mars bar. It cost 4d (denarius or old penny as it came to be called) which is equivalent to 1 US cent now. I had one most days. I now only eat them for nostalgia - they are disgusting and I always regret it.

I'm fifty now, I can't work out if I am young or old now. I find mars bars disgusting as well, I don't know why I still like to taste them every now and again, usually one bite is all I can stand.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

That's amazing - an NHS test that comes with a free Mars Bar!

Not sure 'free' is the right way to put it. I think it is compulsory and has to be eaten all at one go when you already feel dreadful from the barium.

 

[Sasha]

Not sure 'free' is the right way to put it. I think it is compulsory and has to be eaten all at one go when you already feel dreadful from the barium.

That would certainly take all the fun out of it.

 

[xrunner]

I mean how can I increase stomach acid and at the same time lower Uric Acid?? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Happy Thanks Giving!
Thanks so much
Peyt

I'm not sure how you can increase your stomach acid (certainly not with lemon juice which rather slows down digestion) but if you want you can lower uric acid by eating celery.
I used to have abnormally low uric acid and eventually found out it was due to all the celery I used in juicing, so even a good thing may be not that good when used in excess. After I stopped eating/ juicing celery my uric acid returned in the middle of its normal range.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm not sure how you can increase your stomach acid (certainly not with lemon juice which rather slows down digestion) but if you want you can lower uric acid by eating celery.
I used to have abnormally low uric acid and eventually found out it was due to all the celery I used in juicing, so even a good thing may be not that good when used in excess. After I stopped eating/ juicing celery my uric acid returned in the middle of its normal range.

Due to its diuretic effect?
When my uric acid was already high I wasn't able to tolerate celery - I think due to high nitrate content which is detrimental to thyroid (it interferes in T4-T3 conversion? It made my thyroid bulge) plus my kidneys were in overdrive - I was dehydrating from frequent, high volume urination - in my uneducated guess my body was already trying to get rid of too much acidity.

 

[Peyt]

Due to its diuretic effect?
When my uric acid was already high I wasn't able to tolerate celery - I think due to high nitrate content which is detrimental to thyroid (it interferes in T4-T3 conversion? It made my thyroid bulge) plus my kidneys were in overdrive - I was dehydrating from frequent, high volume urination - in my uneducated guess my body was already trying to get rid of too much acidity.

So as far as uric acid, my understanding is that it's the excess purines that create that... so my thought is, is there a specific enzyme to take with food to help breakdown the purines so it does not build up in the first place? Has bromelain been shown to help with purines breakdown?

 

[Gondwanaland]

When it is really a problem, one can follow a low purine diet. I know nothing about the enzymes,

IME taking enough uric acid antagonists gets the job done.

I knew my uric acid level and salicylate were almost too low when I "finally" caught a cold! Then I knew it was safe to eat high sal foods again

 

[Peyt]

When it is really a problem, one can follow a low purine diet. I know nothing about the enzymes,

IME taking enough uric acid antagonists gets the job done.

I knew my uric acid level and salicylate were almost too low when I "finally" caught a cold! Then I knew it was safe to eat high sal foods again

Thanks for sharing. Any idea if celery root juice is as effective as celery juice for bringing down uric acid?
Any how many cups of celery juice did you consume a day to make a difference? thanks

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks for sharing. Any idea if celery root juice is as effective as celery juice for bringing down uric acid?
Any how many cups of celery juice did you consume a day to make a difference? thanks

You will have to tag @xrunner for that. I think the idea here w/ celery is diuretics. Be careful that diuretics can deplete you from vitamin B1 (for instance).

Nothing will be free of side effects. If you overdo with Mg supp, you will have to balance the other electrolytes.