Low E-Coli and Very High Lactococcos Lactis

[LucyS]

Whoops, forgot something Peter - even if you only took the Erythro for a few days, it would have knocked out quite a bit of the Lactococcos in that time(if it responds in the same way as Streptococcos?) and therefore bringing down gradually the overproduction of lactic acid getting into your system and this could also have lead to you feeling better, more energy, better sleep etc. ???
And by the way, I'm curious cos I've just started on the Erythro and soon to add in Mutaflor!! lol
Thanks

 

[Peter]

Hi Lucy,

I took the full course of Erytho - 7 days on, 7 days off and then 7 days on. After the first lot I recovered quicker than the second lot.

As for what caused what I'm not entirely sure, but this is what I do know.

Firstly some history, prior to Erytho, I did some DMPS chelation for mercury (I had 3x the acceptable level) but this treatment really tired me out so I pulled out two thirds of the way through. Then I did the Bioscreen test and found the Low E-Coli etc, so my body was tired prior to Erytho.

After the Erytho, I had started having some old symptoms from last year of Adrenal Fatigue. Bascially I could not do very much without suffering the penalty after. Achy muscles and real lack of desire for much. So I talked to my Dr and went on a physiological dose of Hydrocortisone (24mg/day) just so I could function and give the adrenals a little rest. This has helped.

But my Dr and I are very keen to figure out why my body keeps tiring so he got me to look at the GAPs diet and we also did a number of other blood tests for minerals, hormones and so on.

Now the Erytho obviously did something ... killed the good and bad bacteria I guess.

Then the Mutaflor has more than likely done something... but what I'll probably won't know unless I do a restest ... maybe down the track once things have settled down.

But I do know that a diet high in whole unsoaked grains (buckwheat, millet, flax seeds, rice bran, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, rice milk & psyllium - all gluten free) was affecting me. Because as soon as I would eat this food for breakfast I would get heart palpitations and muscle twitching. When I switched to eggs the symptoms improved pretty quickly. A nice article http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid now tells me that this breakfast was robbing me of my minerals, namely magnesium, calcium etc. Which now makes perfect sense.

I was also big on brown rice, rice cakes & legumes.

My blood tests have shown low Copper, Zinc & very low Manganese. I've also been taking Magnesium and Calcium for my palps and twitching.

So I'm thinking that by switching to the GAPS diet (no grains, soaked seeds, no sugar and starches) and heaps of soups which are very full of easy to absorb minerals I'm giving the Mutaflor a much better chance to 'grow'. From what I can gather undigested grains and seeds in the gut are the perfect food for the unwanted bacteria (see link below). Also by eating fermented foods such as Sauerkraut will also give me some more good bacteria.

There is good interview at http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/03/18/mcbride-and-barringer-interview.aspx on this diet etc.

Basic Principles of the Introduction Diet

1. First, fiber is removed from the diet, because it feeds microbes. The human digestive system is not designed to break down fiber. Instead, it ends up undigested in your bowel, where the majority of your gut flora resides. If your gut flora is healthy, ie dominated by beneficial, probiotic species, then these microbes will feed on the fiber and proliferate.
   
   This is slightly counterintuitive as people and health care professionals consider fiber universally beneficial. I was one of them and in medical school in the 70s was known as Dr. Fiber for my widespread promotion of fiber. However if your gut is filled with pathogenic bacteria and/or yeast and fungi, fiber will actually make your symptoms worse as it is a non-specific growth factor for intestinal bacteria, and does not discriminate between pathogenic and beneficial bacteria.
   
   So, if your bowel is predominantly dominated by pathogenic microbes, pathogenic microbes will feed on fiber and proliferate, making whatever health problems you have worse. The digestive system of those with GAPS is predominantly populated by pathogens, which is why fiber must be carefully eliminated from the diet, for a period of time, to help starve out the pathogens.
2. Second, probiotics are incrementally added in, because without their presence, no healing can ever occur in your digestive tract. This is done in two ways: through probiotic and fermented foods, and therapeutic-strength probiotic supplements
3. The third factor: introducing the building blocks for your gut lining, which promotes healthy enterocyte reproduction to rebuild the integrity of your gut lining.

So in summary, I think that the GAPS diet may be giving the Mutaflor and other good bacteria a much better chance to grow. I suppose it depends on your diet as to how the Mutaflor will grow.

All the best with your treatment... I've learnt heaps on my journey to date!!!

Peter

 

[LucyS]

Thanks for that Peter - its all very interesting! Unbearably confusing, but interesting! I have come across GAPS before a few times so now i might investigate more, makes sense! Could you just tell me if you don't mind, how you "soak" seeds, what in, for how long & then how do you eat them etc Is this for all seeds, and what about nuts?? Allowed!
Thanks again, and stay strong!

 

[xks201]

Peter how did you take the Mutaflor? The liquid suspension does not seem to like to grow in milk...lol.

And as for diet influencing gut flora - there is a lot of scientific research on this and this is very true. Let us know how you are doing on Mutaflor.

I have seen lactic acid producing bacteria char the insides of cows fed a high grain diet so I can believe they could do the same thing in humans.

 

[LucyS]

Hi xks - are you able to let me know or point me in the right direction as to where I can determine, absolutely, which Lactobacillus and which Bifidobacterium strains are NON Lactate forming - (there seems to be some conjecture) and which strains are Lactate utilizing??
What strains therefire would you recommend we supplement?
Thanks

 

[Peter]

Thanks for that Peter - its all very interesting! Unbearably confusing, but interesting! I have come across GAPS before a few times so now i might investigate more, makes sense! Could you just tell me if you don't mind, how you "soak" seeds, what in, for how long & then how do you eat them etc Is this for all seeds, and what about nuts?? Allowed!
Thanks again, and stay strong![/qu

Hi Lucy,

I'm pretty new to the soaking, fermenting and sprouting scene.

But as far as soaking, I like to soak my pumpkin and sunflower seeds overnight (at least 12 hours) in filtered water with a pinch of salt (I use Celtic Sea Salt). Then I put them in the oven at 95degC for 3-4 hours to dehydrate them. Then store them in the fridge and eat as snacks or on top of some stewed fruit.

Cashews I only soak them for about 6hours otherwise they get too soggy. All the rest is the same as the seeds. The almonds are soaked overnight. On GAPS you can eat other seeds and nuts but at this stage I'm keeping it simple. The cashew nuts make a nice flour or butter for muffins or pancakes.

I'm still experimenting with sprouting and have some ferments on the go.

Peter

 

[Peter]

Peter how did you take the Mutaflor? The liquid suspension does not seem to like to grow in milk...lol.

And as for diet influencing gut flora - there is a lot of scientific research on this and this is very true. Let us know how you are doing on Mutaflor.

I have seen lactic acid producing bacteria char the insides of cows fed a high grain diet so I can believe they could do the same thing in humans.

Hi xks201,

I've been taking the Mutaflor (and BioKult) in a pill form about half an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. I've recently started taking it with a squeeze of lemon juice in water.

Who really knows if the Mutaflor is finding 'fertile soil'? Heres hoping!

Peter

 

[LucyS]

Thanks Peter - so the point isn't to make them and eat them mushy so they are more easily digested?? You can soak them then dry them out in oven to crisp up again, and eat them crunchy?? What does the soaking actually acheive then?
And you have to soak nuts as well? Can you do the same thing - soak then cook in oven? Thanks for your help!!
-

 

[Peter]

Thanks Peter - so the point isn't to make them and eat them mushy so they are more easily digested?? You can soak them then dry them out in oven to crisp up again, and eat them crunchy?? What does the soaking actually acheive then?
And you have to soak nuts as well? Can you do the same thing - soak then cook in oven? Thanks for your help!!
-

Hi Lucy,

I guess to the uninitiated it must sound like an exercise of futility - soak seeds and then dry then. But there is a very good reason.

In simple terms, grains, nut, seeds and beans all have anti-nutrients on the surface which protects them (from bacteria etc) until they are ready to germinate. The way they have been 'designed' is that once they detect good fertile soil they release these anti-nutrients and start to grow. So to mimic nature, we soak the seeds in water (imitating the fertile soil) so they will release these hard to digest anti-nutrients.

One of these is anti-nutrients is called Phytic acid, this needs the enzyme Phytase to neutralizes the acid. Otherwise it will sit in the gut and feed the bad bacteria or bind itself to minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc, making them unavailable.

All the ancient civilizations and our grandparents used to soak everything until we the 'clever' ones deemed it a waste of time. Hence all the problems.

So in theory we should be soaking the seeds, nuts, beans and grains especially if our gut is try to heal!

Peter

 

[LucyS]

Now that makes sense! Thank you Peter for that explanation - so you soak them to release the anti nutrients then you can cook them, heat them do whatever we want to eat them!! Thanks

 

[susan]

Some yrs ago I did the Bioscreen test and got a bit of help. But then I did Metametrix 18mths later and I got a more extreme result. I had so many bugs like Salmonella and low ecoli. I took Mutaflor 1 per wk for this and after 3 wks. I encountered such sever diarrhea for 24 hrs a few days after the pill it was incredible. I really would like to make the yoghurt from Mutaflor but dont know if we can get the suspension here. I wonder if you could make it here from crushed Tablets. I know you can add probiotics to start fermenting sauerkraut.

 

[Daffodil]

i just sent in my stool for metametrix yesterday. i wish i had read this thread before. i hope this isn't going to be another huge waste of money i cannot afford !!

they don't even include an ice pack or anything, in their kits.

so...DeMeirleir prefers Diagnos-techs?

there is more and more evidence, among researchers, that the gut is a very important part, if not the most important part, of this illness.....but i had leaky gut testing and saliva testing several times years ago, and it was always normal. ...perhaps the newer testing is more accurate...

 

[Waverunner]

i just sent in my stool for metametrix yesterday. i wish i had read this thread before. i hope this isn't going to be another huge waste of money i cannot afford !!

they don't even include an ice pack or anything, in their kits.

so...DeMeirleir prefers Diagnos-techs?

there is more and more evidence, among researchers, that the gut is a very important part, if not the most important part, of this illness.....but i had leaky gut testing and saliva testing several times years ago, and it was always normal. ...perhaps the newer testing is more accurate...

Don't worry, metametrix seems to be a very good laboratory and since they use DNA analysis, the package doesn't need to be cooled. The problem I see is that we lack treatment as well as understanding of the causes for these weird gut problems many people have. Of course you can use a probiotic, but it only contains a few strains, you don't know where the bacteria go and you don't know what they do. The question is, what is really going on, why do guts turn haywire? The gut is a portal to the outside world and it is highly complex, contains around 800 strains of different bacteria and has to deal with all the food we eat. How does the body know, that the food is no enemy to him? How can we make sure that goblet cells produce correct antigens for the food we eat? How do we make sure that goblet cells and endothelial cells work hand in hand?

Normally you would try to exclude causes in order to find the true culprit. This is not possible, yet. We cannot exclude viral, we cannot exclude bacterial, we cannot exclude allergic, we cannot exclude autoimmune and genetic causes, because we have no efficient and specific means to test for them.

 

[Daffodil]

wave you are totally right. anyway, the gut doesnt become imbalanced on its own..it takes an inflammatory process and we still don't know what is causing that.

if an initial infection caused the gut flora to become imbalanced, wouldn't that normally correct itself after the acute phase of infection? i think so...

about the metametrix test...i am wondering why they tell you to refrigerate before you ship? what difference would that make?

 

[Waverunner]

wave you are totally right. anyway, the gut doesnt become imbalanced on its own..it takes an inflammatory process and we still don't know what is causing that.

if an initial infection caused the gut flora to become imbalanced, wouldn't that normally correct itself after the acute phase of infection? i think so...

about the metametrix test...i am wondering why they tell you to refrigerate before you ship? what difference would that make?

Well, I don't know for sure but maybe even a DNA test has some safety margin. In the end it shouldn't be that much of a problem because we have winter now and the package normally will not get heated on its way anyways.

 

[Daffodil]

unless its near the engine in the fedex plane! thats why they ship blood in styrofoam containers.

 

[julielu]

Hi Lucy,

I took the full course of Erytho - 7 days on, 7 days off and then 7 days on. After the first lot I recovered quicker than the second lot.

As for what caused what I'm not entirely sure, but this is what I do know.

Firstly some history, prior to Erytho, I did some DMPS chelation for mercury (I had 3x the acceptable level) but this treatment really tired me out so I pulled out two thirds of the way through. Then I did the Bioscreen test and found the Low E-Coli etc, so my body was tired prior to Erytho.

After the Erytho, I had started having some old symptoms from last year of Adrenal Fatigue. Bascially I could not do very much without suffering the penalty after. Achy muscles and real lack of desire for much. So I talked to my Dr and went on a physiological dose of Hydrocortisone (24mg/day) just so I could function and give the adrenals a little rest. This has helped.

But my Dr and I are very keen to figure out why my body keeps tiring so he got me to look at the GAPs diet and we also did a number of other blood tests for minerals, hormones and so on.

Now the Erytho obviously did something ... killed the good and bad bacteria I guess.

Then the Mutaflor has more than likely done something... but what I'll probably won't know unless I do a restest ... maybe down the track once things have settled down.

But I do know that a diet high in whole unsoaked grains (buckwheat, millet, flax seeds, rice bran, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, rice milk & psyllium - all gluten free) was affecting me. Because as soon as I would eat this food for breakfast I would get heart palpitations and muscle twitching. When I switched to eggs the symptoms improved pretty quickly. A nice article http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid now tells me that this breakfast was robbing me of my minerals, namely magnesium, calcium etc. Which now makes perfect sense.

I was also big on brown rice, rice cakes & legumes.

My blood tests have shown low Copper, Zinc & very low Manganese. I've also been taking Magnesium and Calcium for my palps and twitching.

So I'm thinking that by switching to the GAPS diet (no grains, soaked seeds, no sugar and starches) and heaps of soups which are very full of easy to absorb minerals I'm giving the Mutaflor a much better chance to 'grow'. From what I can gather undigested grains and seeds in the gut are the perfect food for the unwanted bacteria (see link below). Also by eating fermented foods such as Sauerkraut will also give me some more good bacteria.

There is good interview at http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/03/18/mcbride-and-barringer-interview.aspx on this diet etc.

Basic Principles of the Introduction Diet

​

1. First, fiber is removed from the diet, because it feeds microbes. The human digestive system is not designed to break down fiber. Instead, it ends up undigested in your bowel, where the majority of your gut flora resides. If your gut flora is healthy, ie dominated by beneficial, probiotic species, then these microbes will feed on the fiber and proliferate.
   
   This is slightly counterintuitive as people and health care professionals consider fiber universally beneficial. I was one of them and in medical school in the 70s was known as Dr. Fiber for my widespread promotion of fiber. However if your gut is filled with pathogenic bacteria and/or yeast and fungi, fiber will actually make your symptoms worse as it is a non-specific growth factor for intestinal bacteria, and does not discriminate between pathogenic and beneficial bacteria.
   
   So, if your bowel is predominantly dominated by pathogenic microbes, pathogenic microbes will feed on fiber and proliferate, making whatever health problems you have worse. The digestive system of those with GAPS is predominantly populated by pathogens, which is why fiber must be carefully eliminated from the diet, for a period of time, to help starve out the pathogens.
2. Second, probiotics are incrementally added in, because without their presence, no healing can ever occur in your digestive tract. This is done in two ways: through probiotic and fermented foods, and therapeutic-strength probiotic supplements
3. The third factor: introducing the building blocks for your gut lining, which promotes healthy enterocyte reproduction to rebuild the integrity of your gut lining.

So in summary, I think that the GAPS diet may be giving the Mutaflor and other good bacteria a much better chance to grow. I suppose it depends on your diet as to how the Mutaflor will grow.

All the best with your treatment... I've learnt heaps on my journey to date!!!

Peter

Thanks Peter - so the point isn't to make them and eat them mushy so they are more easily digested?? You can soak them then dry them out in oven to crisp up again, and eat them crunchy?? What does the soaking actually acheive then?
And you have to soak nuts as well? Can you do the same thing - soak then cook in oven? Thanks for your help!!
-

Some yrs ago I did the Bioscreen test and got a bit of help. But then I did Metametrix 18mths later and I got a more extreme result. I had so many bugs like Salmonella and low ecoli. I took Mutaflor 1 per wk for this and after 3 wks. I encountered such sever diarrhea for 24 hrs a few days after the pill it was incredible. I really would like to make the yoghurt from Mutaflor but dont know if we can get the suspension here. I wonder if you could make it here from crushed Tablets. I know you can add probiotics to start fermenting sauerkraut.

 

[beaverfury]

Hi Everyone, I'm new to this forum, but have suffered from Chonic Fatigue symptoms for quite a few years. (starting from 1998)

Having looked through this website and the web in general, I'm starting to realise that the gut is quite important to recovery.

I did some Metametrix Stool tests about 4 months and the levels of Bacteria were within their limits.
However, just last month my Doctor got me to do a stool test with Bioscreen in Melbourne which showed up some abnormalities. ie

Peter
W. Australia

My bioscreen results came back showing low E.coli and high Enterococcus.

According to bioscreen high enterococcus results in-
'Increased proportion of lactic acid and may result in a change in the distribution of the anaerobic microbial
flora.'
Regards the enterococcus overgrowth i'm suspicious of the dental problems i had at cfs onset. Wiki says-
Enterococcus is a genus of lactic acid bacteria of the phylum Firmicutes. E. faecalis has been frequently found in root canal-treated teeth in prevalence values ranging from 30% to 90% of the cases.[2] Root canal-treated teeth are about nine times more likely to harbor E. faecalis than cases of primary infections.[3]

 

[dannybex]

Interesting Beaverfury. It's my understanding that there are both 'good' and 'bad' strains of e. faecalis -- and it's actually used in a few probiotic formulas -- including Threelac -- that some have used with benefit here on PR.

 

[beaverfury]

Interesting Beaverfury. It's my understanding that there are both 'good' and 'bad' strains of e. faecalis -- and it's actually used in a few probiotic formulas -- including Threelac -- that some have used with benefit here on PR.

Good and bad strains? It just gets more complex doesn't it? I wonder how many of us come to me/cfs via teeth problems.

Threelac. Yes i saw that advertised for candida overgrowth which also showed high on my bioscreen test results.
I think it also has saccharomyces boulardii in it(?), which 'supposedly' destroys the cell walls of candida.