Low-dose thiamine: increasing energy, raising BP

[Mary]

Well, I've been experimenting with thiamine for close to 3 weeks now and am finding that I am very sensitive to a low dose - 25 - 30 mg., cannot tolerate anything higher. But this low dose is noticeably helping my energy, and at the same raising my blood pressure, strangely enough, because thiamine is supposed to lower BP. My BP has been in the normal range for years (120 - 125/75 or so) and now is going up to 140, I know, a bit high, but energy is better so am hoping it will settle down.

A year or two ago I tried 400 mg. of thiamine and it was too much and I never bothered to work with a lower dose. I was doing some research on lactic acid recently, thinking of PEM, and read that thiamine deficiency can cause lactic acidosis, which I know is different than PEM, but there's definitely a connection between lactic acid and PEM. So that led me to try thiamine again. I'm 99% sure I avoided one crash since on the B1, and also recovered more quickly from another crash. But, I still do crash. But it hasn't been that long.

I've been taking a B complex that has 25 mg. benfotiamine, but this added B1 is rather amazing. I'm almost too sensitive to the benfotiamine, one 40 mg. dose kept me wired for about 3 days so I'm staying from it for now and just sticking with plain thiamine.

I'm going out of town tomorrow to see kids and grandkids for Thanksgiving (yay!), though will be exhausting of course (boo!). Anyways, I won't be around to reply to this thread for awhile after today. There's more info about B1 I'd like to post, including some very interesting articles, but don't have time today. I already take B complex, metafolin, methylB12, P-5-P, pantothenic acid, and a ton of other stuff.

But thought I would just post this in case it might help someone else.

 

[Bansaw]

But thought I would just post this in case it might help someone else.

Mary - is there a test for Thiamine deficiency? My doc thought my PEM was because of Ammonia as my methylation cycle is broken over there. But I tried Ammonia Scavanger and it didnt do much.
My other thought was lactic acid.
Also, I wonder if anyone can recommend a good Vit B complex thats easily absorbed? I do OK with drops, powdes, sublinguals.... but not caps or pills.

 

[Mary]

@Bansaw - I'm sure there is such a test but don't have the time to look it up right now.

I take a B complex from Swanson Vitamins, which has all the Bs in coenzymated form: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-activated-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps

However, it is a capsule. I'm wondering if you are low in HCL, because you have absorption problems? You might want to look into this if you haven't already. There's a baking soda burp test you might try: mix 1/4 tsp. baking soda in 8 oz. water, drink first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. If you haven't burped in 2 to 3 minutes after drinking, you are most likely low in stomach acid (HCL).

 

[Mary]

One more thing about thiamine - it increased my need for potassium, like everything else that has increased my energy! So something to be on the lookout for if you try thiamine and your energy picks up, watch out for low potassium symptoms. For me low potassium primarily manifests as fatigue, which can be quite severe, and sometimes cramps or spasms in my legs but the fatigue is predominant for me, and dissipates with sufficient potassium intake. Of course it's a different fatigue than PEM, or detoxing etc. etc. etc.!

 

[Bansaw]

I am actually looking at Bulk Powder Thiamine HCL. Thanks for the heads up on the Potassium.

 

[PeterPositive]

Well, I've been experimenting with thiamine for close to 3 weeks now and am finding that I am very sensitive to a low dose - 25 - 30 mg., cannot tolerate anything higher.

Actually that's far from a low dose
The RDA for B1 is 1.0-1.4 mg/day so you're taking 20 to 30 times the daily dose.

cheers

 

[Mary]

Actually that's far from a low dose
The RDA for B1 is 1.0-1.4 mg/day so you're taking 20 to 30 times the daily dose.

cheers

Yes, actually, you're right - but I was distinguishing it from the very high doses people reported getting benefit from before - there's another thread on the board where people were taking hundreds of millligrams, some over 1000 mgs.

Although re the RDA - I don't have much faith in those numbers - I believe they're in generally extremely low.

 

[sb4]

@Mary Did you ever get to the bottom of this. I have been having small but very significant success with thiamine and other b vits but am having the high blood pressure problem ~140/85. This is particularly bothersome as it affects my heart pounding in a perculiar way. I am also noticing a bit of insomnia.

I am taking about 5mg allithiamine transdsermally + about 1/10th of a b-minus capsule (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00HZUNQ9K/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item) that roughly equates to 100-300% RDA of all b vits except folate+b12. I'm also using transdermal magnesium and potassium.

 

[sb4]

Could it be something to with:

-homocystine, not taking b12/9 is causing some kind of back up from the other b vits?

-not enough magnesium, too much getting used by thiamine?

-The b-complex has far less niacin RDA than other bs. Maybe taking extra niacin will help?

 

[Mary]

@Mary Did you ever get to the bottom of this. I have been having small but very significant success with thiamine and other b vits but am having the high blood pressure problem ~140/85. This is particularly bothersome as it affects my heart pounding in a perculiar way. I am also noticing a bit of insomnia.

I am taking about 5mg allithiamine transdsermally + about 1/10th of a b-minus capsule (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00HZUNQ9K/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item) that roughly equates to 100-300% RDA of all b vits except folate+b12. I'm also using transdermal magnesium and potassium.

What comes to mind is potassium. When I first took B1, it increased my need for potassium, which I wasn't aware of at first. And low potassium can cause high blood pressure and heart pounding and insomnia. It could be causing all your symptoms. If you've done any reading about starting methylB12 and methyolfolate, you'll see that low potassium is an extremely common effect of starting these supplements, because as the body starts to work how it's supposed to and cells divide more rapidly, it uses more potassium, thus inducing a deficiency. And I think the same thing can happen with B1, it certainly did with me.

An easy way to find out if this is the problem is to eat or drink some high potassium foods. I like low-sodium V8 or low-sodium vegetable juice (and I think tomato juice too) - these are high in potassium and low in sugar. I would try drinking several glasses throughout the day and see if your symptoms abate. It might take a couple of days. I've ended up taking a potassium supplement (potassium gluconate). I take about 1000 mg. a day (in divided doses, with each meal and even before bed!), plus drink low-sodium V8 (1 glass) a day. the low-sodium type has more potassium than regular. I don't think one banana would be enough to see if low potassium is your problem.

eta: I just noticed you said you are taking other B vitamins as well which I presume would include some sort of folate and B12 - so I think there's a very good chance that low potassium may be the problem. FWIW, the RDA of potassium is roughly 4500 mg, so the 1000 mg I take is a little less than 25% of that. It you end up taking a potassium supplement, don't take a large amount all at once, you titrate up gradually to see what you need, taking it in divided doses throughout the day.

 

[sb4]

@Mary Thanks, I should have said that I am taking decent amounts of low salt (k+) but maybe it's not enough. I will try again tommorow.

For the moment I'm deliberately avoiding folate/b12 as they sent my on a bad downward spiral last year.

 

[Mary]

@sb4 - I don't know what low salt (k+) is - I presume it has potassium in it, but have no idea how much. Some people have needed 2000 or 3000 mg extra potassium, we are all different. I suspect that whatever the low salt product is, it may not have enough potassium, you'll have to check on this.

 

[sb4]

@Mary It is 1/3 salt 2/3 potassium. I usually take the RDA of k from it so around 3g. I will experiment again today.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Mary It is 1/3 salt 2/3 potassium. I usually take the RDA of k from it so around 3g. I will experiment again today.

I don't think the chloride form would be really effective if one wants to lower BP (same for Mg chloride)...

OTOH Potassium Bicarbonate taken at about just 30mg gave me POTS - it crushed my already low BP

 

[sb4]

Update for today, I haven't noticed any real problems, not been measuring BP but I can usually tell with the palps.

It appears Thiamine plus the 5 other Bs I am taking are helping my POTS and gastroparesis massively! It's early days yet but I'm sure my acid is coming back. I used to get GERD that wouldn't burn at all. Now it burns sometimes. I will experiment if this is true with betaine hcl. Previously I could take 20 caps and feel nothing. I think I may be able to feel burning this time. I will try soon.

 

[Mary]

@sb4 - I'm really glad to hear all this! Will keep my fingers crossed for you

eta: I'm also wondering if your downward spiral with folate and B12 was related to low potassium.

 

[Mary]

I don't think the chloride form would be really effective if one wants to lower BP (same for Mg chloride)...

OTOH Potassium Bicarbonate taken at about just 30mg gave me POTS - it crushed my already low BP

why do you think the chloride form would not be effective for lowering BP? (interesting about the potassium bicarbonate too!)

 

[sb4]

@Mary It's possible that k was responsible for downfall with folate/b12 however I was supplementing with K chloride then (if this is the correct version to use...). I think it has more to do with my already "overmethylation" symptoms and probably depleting thiamine further causing POTS to explode. I think this is backed up by how well my POTS is responding to thiamine.

I intend to try adding folate/b12 back some time down the line but first I want to make sure my other b-vits are up to the right levels before risking inducing deficiencies.

 

[Gondwanaland]

why do you think the chloride form would not be effective for lowering BP? (interesting about the potassium bicarbonate too!)

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/45/5/849
Contributions of Sodium and Chloride to NaCl-Induced Hypertension
Theodore A. Kotchen
Download PDF
https://doi.org/10.1161/01.HYP.0000164629.94634.27
Hypertension. 2005;45:849-850
Originally published April 28, 2005

The recommendation to avoid high dietary “salt” intake for the prevention and treatment of hypertension is often expressed in terms of dietary sodium. However, a consistent body of evidence suggests that the chloride component of salt is an important contributor to NaCl-induced elevations of blood pressure.1 In several rat models of salt-sensitive hypertension (Dahl salt-sensitive rat, DOCA-salt hypertension, stroke-prone SHR [SHRSP], angiotensin II-induced salt-sensitive hypertension), selective dietary sodium loading, in the absence of chloride, fails to produce hypertension. In various feeding protocols, anions provided with sodium included various combinations of bicarbonate, phosphate, aspartate, glutamate, and glycinate. Overall, the failure of selective dietary sodium loading to produce hypertension in these studies was not related to group differences of body weight, net sodium balance, blood pH, or serum concentrations of sodium, potassium, or chloride.

Similarly, a limited number of clinical observations also indicate that blood pressure is not increased in humans by high dietary sodium intakes in the absence of chloride. .....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4325190/
Pflugers Arch. 2015; 467(3): 595–603.
Published online 2015 Jan 27. doi: 10.1007/s00424-015-1690-8
PMCID: PMC4325190
The hidden hand of chloride in hypertension

Abstract
Among the environmental factors that affect blood pressure, dietary sodium chloride has been studied the most, and there is general consensus that increased sodium chloride intake increases blood pressure. There is accruing evidence that chloride may have a role in blood pressure regulation which may perhaps be even more important than that of Na+. Though more than 85 % of Na+ is consumed as sodium chloride, there is evidence that Na+ and Cl− concentrations do not go necessarily hand in hand since they may originate from different sources. Hence, elucidating the role of Cl− as an independent player in blood pressure regulation will have clinical and public health implications in addition to advancing our understanding of electrolyte-mediated blood pressure regulation. In this review, we describe the evidence that support an independent role for Cl− on hypertension and cardiovascular health.

 

[Mary]

Very interesting - thanks @Gondwanaland!

@sb4 - check out the above post. if your potassium supplement is in the form of potassium chloride, it might be a problem and contribute to high BP. I take potassium gluconate.