Lombardi et al 2011 - cytokine signature in CFS

[5150]

hi jemal,
may i ask you which anti inflammatory medicine(s) has helped you?

i have a doctor's appt soon and would like to ask for something instead of Advil.

thank you.

Jemal, thanks for your helpful response on pm

 

[heapsreal]

Those who have had cytokine testing done and xmrv for that matter, have u also had nk function testing done? and what were the results?

cheers!!!

 

[Cort]

Do you think this paper is worth an article on the Front Page, Cort?

I think an article looking at cytokine results in CFS featuring this paper and others would be great idea for an article. I think the field is moving towards immune dysfunction and this paper, the Broderick work and the Klimas/FLetcher studies suggest they may be getting a handle on it.

What I think I'll do is incorporate it into the immunology section of the SOK review that I am way behind on.... I'm actually pretty behind on alot of stuff - including this paper, which I have not even gotten into the XMRV Buzz page .

 

[Cort]

I understood the Lombardi study to be specific to ME/CFS and XMRV infection.

Would that not exclude the Klimas study from comparison, if it cannot be known whether her patients were XMRV+ve?

Since we know that people on this Forum had different results from the XMRV testing - I think it would too much to expect them to match.

 

[Cort]

I consider myself a fairly typical CCC Me patient (although i do have it since childhood/ no sudden onset) I have insanely elevated il-4 and il-1 b and il-12, as conform FLetcher, I know many (canadian criterian) pwme that have this. My il-8 is low-normal and my il-5 is (as conform WPI) very low, my il-1-a is also low, as conform to wpi. So I seem to be in between the two profiles. But my il-13 is normal, and my il-6 low. SIgh.. this is a mess.. Seriously I dont think this is going to be helpful other than for deciding on the individual treatment for the person with the cytokine profile. Too heterogeneous. Inflammation is an aspect, for sure, but it can present itself in many different ways, AND varies over time.
Moreover, all the immune modulators, high dose vitamins etc that we are taking will also likely affect the cytokine profile.
oh for completeness; tnf r11 and il 23 are also high

BTW I take high dose vitamin k2 and that can greatly lower il-6

That's interesting about K2 (and it means you can throw your IL-6 counts out, I guess)....There doesn't seem to be too much normal going in with your cytokines!

Of course these are aggregate reports and most people will not fit the profile exactly...-although you do seem to be right in between! Their main usefulness, I would imagine, is to demonstrate a general pattern of immune abnormalities in ME/CFS...

Given the trickiness of the immune system treatment will definite require a person by person profile......

 

[alex3619]

Hi, these are just some thoughts I have had on this topic, just some ideas to kick around, nothing solid.

Cytokines are often short lived. The blood tests might differ with time of day, supplements, diet, infections, and activity levels. The symptoms that match these cytokines frequently appear sporadically in patients. So the question is really: when and how were the tests done?

Another confounding factor is the type of test used. Klimas said (iirc) that the newer tests were much better. It might be the case that older tests were inaccurate.

Finally, there is the challenge testing. Having patients exercise first is a fantastic idea to spot induced cytokines, but I would also want to know what the cytokine levels were the next day.

Cytokines may or may not be a reliable measure. We need to know more.

I am also kicking around issues with gamma delta t-cells. If they have proliferated this will put demand on many things, including folate and glutathione. Also, once proliferated they will become more responsive in the presence of their triggers, less so if the trigger is absent. Since they can regulate NK cell activity, they could potentially explain NK cell dysfunction. We lack CFS specific data.

Bye
Alex

 

[heapsreal]

I also wonder if the nk cells burn out and arent around long enough to mature, similar to low neutrophils after an infection. If our bodies are being attacked by multiple reactivated infections, how can our nk cells and other t-cells keep up. I know by my experience that lowering my herpes viral load showed improvement in my nk function and lymphocytes. So i think we need to really find out what infections are bugging us and treat them and then specific treatments to bolster the immune system like interferon inducers, immunoglobulins etc. I wonder if this is what montoys is looking into, mmm.

cheers!!

 

[Forebearance]

I hope Montoya is looking into that. That would be great.
I hope we get a lot more research into this area of immune function.

You know, Rich, I feel like I have both your hypothesis and Dr. Shoemaker's hypothesis happening in me at the same time. Plus if XMRV is present and doing bad things it could be contributing its own unique retroviral talents in messing up the immune system.

Thank you for the info Alex!

 

[heapsreal]

interferon which our body producers can be down regulated by herpes infection like ebv/cmv/hhv6. This reduced interferon can lower nk function, so interferon inducers like immunovir and cycloferon can help with this. Im not sure about immunoglobulins with specific effects on nk function but it does help improve other parts of our immune system.

 

[eric_s]

Do we know anything about where the ME/CFS subjects in this study were from? Where they from all over the USA? In the paper i can't find anything about this.

 

[richvank]

You know, Rich, I feel like I have both your hypothesis and Dr. Shoemaker's hypothesis happening in me at the same time. Plus if XMRV is present and doing bad things it could be contributing its own unique retroviral talents in messing up the immune system.

Thank you for the info Alex!

Hi, Mary.

I think that it is actually possible that both Dr. Shoemaker's mechanism and the one I have suggested could be present in a person simultaneously. In fact, I suspect that in a person who is genetically susceptible to mold illness and is exposed to toxic molds, the mechanism he has described could occur first, and the toxins could build up in the person's body, and then these toxins could cause glutathione to become depleted, leading into a partial methylation cycle block for a person who was also genetically predisposed to that. Slayadragon has called my attention to published literature that indicates that some of the mold toxins do deplete glutathione. I have communicated with Dr. Shoemaker about this, but as far as I know, he is still not wildly enthusiastic about this prospect! -) Nevertheless, I do think it is a possibility.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[eric_s]

I would like to get some more information about the grant that is mentioned in this paper (RO1A1078234). Does somebody know how to find out more? Maybe it can be done here, but i don't know how to do it.

 

[Sam Carter]

I would like to get some more information about the grant that is mentioned in this paper (RO1A1078234). Does somebody know how to find out more? Maybe it can be done here, but i don't know how to do it.

This link ought to work, Eric:

http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=7938730&icde=8172616

 

[eric_s]

Thanks a lot, Sam.

 

[acer2000]

Has anyone had their cytokines tested at the WPI or VIPdx and also at Klimas lab? That would be interesting. I have had mine tested at VIPdx multiple times. They vary a lot, but if there is one that I can count on being elevated and abnormal it is IL-8.

 

[Forebearance]

Thanks, Rich. I wish Dr. S could look beyond his own piece of the elephant.
By the way, who is Mary? lol

That is really interesting, acer2000!

 

[richvank]

Thanks, Rich. I wish Dr. S could look beyond his own piece of the elephant.
By the way, who is Mary? lol

That is really interesting, acer2000!

Sorry, Forebearance.

I was in the middle of trying to answer a post from Mary on another thread, and got confused. Can I plead brain fog?

Dr. S. is pretty focused, but I think he has mellowed a little! -)

Rich

 

[aquariusgirl]

acer.. my ID doc Joe Brewer told me that the info out of the WPI links elevated IL8 to XMRV. He was otherwise unwilling to read too much into cytokines... says they fluctuate and no one is really sure what that means. Paraphrasing here!

 

[Forebearance]

Hey, leaves, it worked on me! I tried some vitamin K2 and felt my inflammation go down. Woo hoo! And thanks for telling us about it.

 

[leaves]

im glad to hear it! btw luteolin may also be useful for these cytokines..