Lesser Known T2 Thyroid Hormone Activates Mitochondria

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Likes
4,727
Location
The other side.
I'm discontinuing the T2 for the time being, until I figure out what's going on.

Received it on Friday and it's now only Wednesday, I've put on 3.2KG (weighed under the same conditions/time etc., with an accuracy of 200g caused by my scales limitations). As a weight loss supplement, this sucks (LOL). To put on this much weight in this period I would have needed to have eaten over 6000kcal a day, every day.

As I haven't, and am probably closer to eating 2000kcal a day (because the T2 seems to have made me hungrier), and I've seen no noticeable up side to taking them, not even how I feel upon waking (this morning was really quite bad and it's still affecting me) I'm stopping, at least until i can find an explanation for the rapid weight gain.
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Likes
4,727
Location
The other side.
@ Wonko, did you reduce dosage to see if that helped?
No, as I said I've only been on them a few days. However I was taking them at less than the "recommended" dose, for fat burning.

I suspect that there is some conflict going on between either my other medication (for diabetes) or simply an incompatibility between myself and supplemental T2.

As i have something to do early next week I can't afford the resources needed, and at risk, to continue this trial until after I have recovered from that event.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Likes
45,612
I suspect that there is some conflict going on between either my other medication (for diabetes) or simply an incompatibility between myself and supplemental T2.
Which diabetes med? The most common, Metformin, doesn't seem well tolerated in ME patients, probably due to its documented effect of wreaking havoc on Complex I of the electron transport chain in mitochondria.
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Likes
4,727
Location
The other side.
Which diabetes med? The most common, Metformin, doesn't seem well tolerated in ME patients, probably due to its documented effect of wreaking havoc on Complex I of the electron transport chain in mitochondria.
I haven't been on Metformin for several years due to suddenly becoming extremely intolerant of it, after having been on it for 2-3 years. I never found it to be effective at reducing blood glucose levels.

I am currently on dapagliflozin 10mg, which works by partially disabling kidney glucose re-uptake and is extremely effective, allowing me to eat "normal" foods again and still have good to moderate BG control. I also take sitagliptin 100mg, which is slightly effective. Despite a near doubling of my calorie intake, to around 1500-2500kcal per day (depending on how ill, able to stomach the thought of food, able to organise myself enough to prepare and eat food, and thus how much I ate that day),

I had, until trying the T2, been slowly but steadily losing weight on this combination - at a rate of, on average, around one pound a week.

Before being put on dapagliflozin I was on sitagliptin and gliclazide, if I actually took the gliclazide then if I ate more than 800kcal a day I put on weight rapidly, at roughly the same rate, on a "normal" diet as I have just experienced with the T2. Due to this I repeatedly refused to take the gliclazide, my previously good BG control dropped to poor and I was eventually referred to my local hospital diabetes unit and put on dapagliflozin, which after 3 days where my BG went up, dropped my BG down to acceptable levels and even eating foods I previously hadn't been able to eat, like bread, my BG stayed okay.

However it's more complicated than that. during the period I was supposed to be taking gliclazide I was also taking up to 4 grains of NDT a day, around the time I was switched over to dapagliflozin I found out that Thyroid hormones can significantly reduce the effect of diabetes meds. Coincidentally I stopped the NDT a few days before I started dapagliflozin. So there is a possibility that the NDT contributed to the rapid weight gain by reducing the effects of my diabetes meds, which the gliclazide then mopped up by causing constantly high insulin levels which meant the BG was "converted" to fat, that with the attendant water used in fat storage is what i think caused the weight gain.

Given the similarities between the 2 situations, thyroid supplement, diabetes and diabetes meds, impossible weight gain (given how much I've eaten the amount of gain just isn't possible as fat mass increase), I've decided to drop the thyroid supplement until I have more time/energy/resources and I've had time to do some more reading, which is probably a few weeks.
 
Last edited:

pibee

Senior Member
Messages
272
Likes
433
Very interesting thread.
Because natural pig thyroid saved my life. It has of course t2 too
Synthetic with t4+t3 dont have ao good effect, although much better than t4 only.

So could be linked to t2.


However it also enhanced some of my CFS symptoms, same as high dose vitamin D did.

All together was very worth it but also not without worsenings.
Why it has to be so complicated :(
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,352
Likes
2,331
Location
South East England, UK
I have been on natural dessicated thyroid medication since 2003 and since treating my gut with various probiotics and some herbs I have been able to reduce the dose from 2 grains to about 1 1/4 plus I HAVE HAD CONSISTENT ENERGY IN MY BODY NOW FOR 4 DAYS IN A ROW. IT HASN'T RUN OUT AT ALL.

Of course its very early days but I am feeling like a different person, things have changed so much. I split my dose of thyroid meds every day and at the moment I am not completely sure what dose I do need because I get a few symptoms of overdosing but after a few hours they go so I am titrating downwards. I can always feel if I have run a bit low and need a top up but its hardly been happening these past few days.

It would seem to me that my illness has been rooted in a very poor microbiome which was illustrated in my American Gut stool test done at the end of May this year. By addressing the small amount of beneficial bacteria I had in my gut my energy has come back.

I think my progress would have been faster but it was held back by an infected finger that wasn't treated till last week but I first got the splinters in it in early September. The stupid Nurse Practitioner at my local surgery said it was a lymphdemia and wouldn't touch it. Thankfully it was removed last Wednesday and since then I have been so well and have done over 10,000 steps on more than 5 days without any ill effects.

I still have the problem of morning headaches that often go into migraines but they haven't made me feel ill either. I think they might be due to overdosing on foods containing glutamine so I am now cutting right back on them in the hope that they will improve.

Having deeply researched the gut and the microbiome and what it does in the body there is no question in my mind that if there is a big imbalance it can cause all the symptoms we suffer from.

Pam
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
2,074
Likes
4,966
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Having deeply researched the gut and the microbiome and what it does in the body there is no question in my mind that if there is a big imbalance it can cause all the symptoms we suffer from.
Well said Pam! As you probably know, I couldn't agree more!;) So good to hear you are doing so well.:woot::thumbsup: I also continue to improve with gut treatments.

I just started taking curcumin a few days ago and so far it is giving me a huge boost in energy. It's suppose to lower inflammation and it really seems to be doing that.

I need more time with it though to fully see how much it helps. I also added ginger and 1.5 grams a day of omega 3"s, DHA/EPA to further reduce inflammation. I think immune system activation causing inflammation is a big cause of symptoms.

Jim
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
1,703
Likes
2,732
To plbee: I think I mentioned earlier that I tried dessicated pig thyroid and it didn't seem to contain enough T2 to have a noticeable effect on me, so I don't know if DPT is of any use for experiments regarding T2. Worse: I went to order more T2 and found that it had been discontinued, as had another brand of it. I guess it had been a fad for a while and now (after people found that it didn't really help burning fat) no longer has enough customers to justify production. Luckily iodine works as well for me. I'll just have to experiment a bit to find the minimal required dose, since I don't want potential problems from taking more iodine than I need. Yes, this disorder definitely is complicated, as is the process of finding a treatment that works (and doesn't cause other problems), and the process of dealing with the medical system. All overly complicated, for people who aren't up to dealing with complications.

As for the microbiome link, add me to the list of people who regard it as a major factor for many people. Unfortunately people can have a serious problem that won't show up on a simple stool sample test, and there's no simple treatment. While I was having an immune problem due to microbiome imbalance, I did try candida treatments, probiotics, prebiotics, bran, diet change, etc (and had antibiotics a couple of times in that period), and none had any effect, except that the candida treatments did trigger worse symptoms. Would a doctor have told me that I had a microbiome imbalance and prescribed spoiled coconut milk? Not a chance, but that was what worked. So, if you think you might have a microbiome problem, but yoghurt and probiotic capsules aren't having an effect, that doesn't mean that your microbiome is healthy after all. You might just not have found the right way to correct the imbalance yet.
 

pibee

Senior Member
Messages
272
Likes
433
I am not exaggerating when i say that NDT saved my life.
I was on t4-only and my mental health was very bad, but also when I switched to NDT besides 80% improved mental health, i got much more energy. Not sure if this would be from simply raising serotonin or also mitochondria effect.
Looking back i think must be mitochondria too.

However it aeems like NDT enhanced autoimmunity in me.
First thing i noticed is considerable drop in "intelligence", its not actally intelligence but some part of working memory.
For example when i had to give aome public speech I would have much harder time than on t4-only because my concentration and ability to clearly think was worse.
But that was not so big drop ao i was still happy w NDT saving my butt.

Also what i noticed is that even tho i had tona more energy, i refused invites to go rollerskating w my friends, which i didnt before.
So in some way it did enhance autoimmunity, i mean me cfs

Before NDT i developed my online company, it was much easier. Later i couldnt do that, now i cant too. I had better focus, clearer mind.
But i was very mentally unstable.

Same happened with vitamin D, strenghtened my AI.
Seems like immune boosting treatments make me worse, i would guess bc of molecular mimicry. Because vit D shluld help autoimmunity and for me it did opposite.

But NDT got me out of my room, i was active about 80% of what normal people my age and character are, because I need a lot of activities to be happy, I am very outgoing, so from a side it looked like i am full of energy while in fact that is my CFS version.

Why would iodine work? I havent tried it yet.

Another thing that started to happen faster on NDT was my lymme progression. I suddenly got ao many neuropathies that i didnt get in 8 yrs (i got more in 1 yr than in 8!). It is now gone with antibiotica so i am kinda sure it was lyme or some other bacteria.


Now i am considering going off NDT for a while, to lower my immunity or whatever happens pn t4-only, but i am afraid it will again cause me to be unstable and even less energy.
But i urgently need to prevent whatver is happening to my brain [fog].

Need to go back to the roots and see why I responded to NDT like this.
 
Last edited:

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,002
Likes
4,136
I am not exaggerating when i say that NDT saved my life.
I was on t4-only and my mental health was very bad, but also when I switched to NDT besides 80% improved mental health, i got much more energy. Not sure if this would be from simply raising serotonin or also mitochondria effect.
Looking back i think must be mitochondria too.
I can say the same from switching from L-T4 to compounded T4+T3. I feel that T3 helps to produce glutathione.
However it aeems like NDT enhanced autoimmunity in me.
Likewise from T4+T3
First thing i noticed is considerable drop in "intelligence", its not actally intelligence but some part of working memory.
For example when i had to give aome public speech I would have much harder time than on t4-only because my concentration and ability to clearly think was worse.
But that was not so big drop ao i was still happy w NDT saving my butt.
I think this is due to thyroid x estrogen antagonism. My dr said that estrogen is crucial for mood, libido and cognition.
Also what i noticed is that even tho i had tona more energy, i refused invites to go rollerskating w my friends, which i didnt before.
My social abilities also declined further with T4+T3
Before NDT i developed my online company, it was much easier. Later i couldnt do that, now i cant too. I had better focus, clearer mind.
I can't be productive with my computer anymore as well. It improved recently when I was able to enhance endogenous estrogen, but not without side effects
vit D shluld help autoimmunity and for me it did opposite.
Same for me
But NDT got me out of my room,
Me too
Why would iodine work? I havent tried it yet.
I have tried it once and it is very highly anti-estrogenic
Another thing that started to happen faster on NDT was my lymme progression. I suddenly got ao many neuropathies
I got joint degeneration which is improved by estrogen
 

pibee

Senior Member
Messages
272
Likes
433
I feel that T3 helps to produce glutathione.
did you test this by trying IV glutathione or liposomal?
i felt nothing from it.
I think simply i was deficient in t3 on tissue level because of Lyme.


Likewise from T4+T3
I think this is due to thyroid x estrogen antagonism. My dr said that estrogen is crucial for mood, libido and cognition.
hm, doesnt make much sense in my opinion.
first, it extremely improved my mood (ndt)
and made only part of my cognition worse,part that hurts a lot now after treatment attempts (right frontal lobe), i physically feel part of brain that doesnt work. and it hurts.


also most people dont have these side effects from NDT, most just get better. I always thought it's because of lyme and raising immunity. i lived in hypo state for 10+ yrs, it was bad long term but short term had effects like any immunesupression on autoimmune diseases (?!)

My social abilities also declined further with T4+T3
for me extremely improved my social life, simply because gave me energy and i felt again like "myself". on t4-only i felt like that's not me, i was really depressed because i lost my personality and didnt know why.
when i switched to NDT within few weeks or even days i felt like i'm again myself. it was extreme switch in personality.

roller skating example was because of doing sports.
I can't be productive with my computer anymore as well. It improved recently when I was able to enhance endogenous estrogen, but not without side effects
how did you do that? which labs should i do to check it out?
i basically dont get a time to pay attention to sex hormones, next to all doctors' visits i make. but my periods are mostly regular, and dont make much problems for me even. sometimes only 2 days. a bit of pain and that's it.

Ow yes, now i remembered. first time in life i started to have PMS was on NDT, never before! :)
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
1,703
Likes
2,732
For why iodine would work as well as T2, I assume that the boost in iodine causes an increase in thyroid production of T2. I just observed a reliable and seemingly identical effect from both T2 and iodine.
 

anni66

mum to ME daughter
Messages
483
Likes
1,336
Location
scotland
I haven't been on Metformin for several years due to suddenly becoming extremely intolerant of it, after having been on it for 2-3 years. I never found it to be effective at reducing blood glucose levels.

I am currently on dapagliflozin 10mg, which works by partially disabling kidney glucose re-uptake and is extremely effective, allowing me to eat "normal" foods again and still have good to moderate BG control. I also take sitagliptin 100mg, which is slightly effective. Despite a near doubling of my calorie intake, to around 1500-2500kcal per day (depending on how ill, able to stomach the thought of food, able to organise myself enough to prepare and eat food, and thus how much I ate that day),

I had, until trying the T2, been slowly but steadily losing weight on this combination - at a rate of, on average, around one pound a week.

Before being put on dapagliflozin I was on sitagliptin and gliclazide, if I actually took the gliclazide then if I ate more than 800kcal a day I put on weight rapidly, at roughly the same rate, on a "normal" diet as I have just experienced with the T2. Due to this I repeatedly refused to take the gliclazide, my previously good BG control dropped to poor and I was eventually referred to my local hospital diabetes unit and put on dapagliflozin, which after 3 days where my BG went up, dropped my BG down to acceptable levels and even eating foods I previously hadn't been able to eat, like bread, my BG stayed okay.

However it's more complicated than that. during the period I was supposed to be taking gliclazide I was also taking up to 4 grains of NDT a day, around the time I was switched over to dapagliflozin I found out that Thyroid hormones can significantly reduce the effect of diabetes meds. Coincidentally I stopped the NDT a few days before I started dapagliflozin. So there is a possibility that the NDT contributed to the rapid weight gain by reducing the effects of my diabetes meds, which the gliclazide then mopped up by causing constantly high insulin levels which meant the BG was "converted" to fat, that with the attendant water used in fat storage is what i think caused the weight gain.

Given the similarities between the 2 situations, thyroid supplement, diabetes and diabetes meds, impossible weight gain (given how much I've eaten the amount of gain just isn't possible as fat mass increase), I've decided to drop the thyroid supplement until I have more time/energy/resources and I've had time to do some more reading, which is probably a few weeks.
What does your diet comprise ? Too little fat ( in proportion to protein and carbs) and effects may be negligible
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,002
Likes
4,136
how did you do that? which labs should i do to check it out?
i basically dont get a time to pay attention to sex hormones, next to all doctors' visits i make. but my periods are mostly regular, and dont make much problems for me even. sometimes only 2 days. a bit of pain and that's it.

Ow yes, now i remembered. first time in life i started to have PMS was on NDT, never before! :)
I will reply at the menstruation thread
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
2,133
Likes
3,878
Would you have a reference for that? I found this in Wikipedia:

So it seems that there are active transporters that carry thyroid hormones into the cell.
The active transporters (ATP dependants) carry TH in the cells, so what happens if ATP is missing?

All the TH transporters may not be affected the same way by a lack of ATP, so TH peripheral action may be disrupted in cells in different ways, depending of the kind of transporters they are carrying in their cell-wall...

According to Holtorf, T4 transporters are more energy dependent than T3 transporters here

This picture below is from this article
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
2,133
Likes
3,878
"T2: The Best Thyroid Supplement

3,5 Diiodo-L-thyronine is the chemical name for T2. There is a 3,3 version but that is inactive, 3,5 is what you want."

Note that some of these supplements contain T2 in the 3,3 diiodo-L-thyronine as well as the 3,5 diiodo-L-thyronine form. But apparently, only the 3,5 form has active effects.
In fact, I didn't find any study about inability of 3.3-T2 to stimulate OXPHOS, and I found one study and one article stating the contrary...(the picture + article I quoted above).
 

BadBadBear

Senior Member
Messages
571
Likes
904
Location
Rocky Mountains
@pattismith Have you ever found any info as to whether the deiodinase enzymes are downregulated when a person is on a replacement dose of T3 and TSH is suppressed? I had heard Paul Robinson mention that once but could never find any references about it.

In the picture you posted, it looks like a lack of deiodinase enzymes would be an issue.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
2,133
Likes
3,878
@pattismith Have you ever found any info as to whether the deiodinase enzymes are downregulated when a person is on a replacement dose of T3 and TSH is suppressed? I had heard Paul Robinson mention that once but could never find any references about it.

In the picture you posted, it looks like a lack of deiodinase enzymes would be an issue.
first thing I try to investigate is how we got where we are, and how our deiodinases dysregulated.

I started to post about it in this thread here.
it could be that our D1 was down regulated whereas our D3 was up regulated.

It seems that pollutants can do that, but I suspect also chronic infections to have potency to generate a Low T3 Syndrome /and or decrease the Hypothalamus/Pituitary Axis (it has already be shown that an EBV or Lyme encephalitis can do that post encephalitis).

I believe a disruption in Thyroid Hormons metabolism could be primary in a subset of ME/CFS syndrome... (maybe more women?).
T1AM could be also involved, I started to invastigate this TH metabolite here, but science has not yet fully solve the mystery of this hormon... T1AM is blocking T3 (wherease I found no evidence that rT3 directly blocks T3 action) and TA1M could be produced in the gut (and maybe by the microbiota!), so this track is really interesting....
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
2,133
Likes
3,878
in this review,

"Growing evidence indicates 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) as a biologically active thyroid hormone derivative able to affect energy metabolism (Goglia, 2015 and references within). T2 increases resting metabolic rate, enhances lipid utilization as a fuel substrate, and prevents the occurrence of diet-induced obesity and associated diseases, including liver steatosis, hypertriglyceridemia, hypercholesterolemia (Lanni et al., 2005; de Lange et al., 2011), and insulin resistance (de Lange et al., 2011; Moreno et al., 2011).
In SKM, T2 ameliorates the tissue's response to insulin that is impaired by a high fat diet (Moreno et al., 2011). Importantly, previous studies have shown that, contrary to T3, T2 does not induce thyrotoxicity or undesirable side effects at the cardiovascular level at the doses used (25 μg/100 g rat body weight, Lanni et al., 2005; de Lange et al., 2011)."

So this means that people who eat fat and who have low cholesterol might have good T2 level.

People with CFS/ME who have high cholesterol may investigate a possibility of lack of T2.

I also found this article very interesting:


"RESULTS:

Critically ill patients revealed, besides the NTI (Non Thyroidal Illness = Low T3 syndrome), a median 44% lower serum 3-T1AM concentration (p < 0.0001) and a 30% higher serum 3,5-T2 concentration (p = 0.01) than healthy volunteers did. Non-survivors and patients diagnosed with sepsis upon admission to the intensive-care unit had significantly higher 3,5-T2 (p ≤ 0.01) but comparable 3-T1AM (p > 0.2) concentrations than other patients did. Multivariable linear regression analysis adjusted for potential precursors revealed that the reduced serum 3-T1AM was positively correlated with the low serum T3 (p < 0.001) but unrelated to serum T4 or rT3. The elevated 3,5-T2 concentration did not independently correlate with TH.

CONCLUSIONS:
Increased TH metabolism during NTI could not be explained by increased conversion to 3-T1AM, as circulating 3-T1AM was suppressed in proportion to the concomitantly low T3 concentrations.
Increased conversion of T4 and/or T3 to 3,5-T2 could be possible, as serum 3,5-T2 concentrations were elevated. Whether 3-T1AM or 3,5-T2 plays a functional role during critical illness needs further investigation."